Guideline Definitions & Terminology

Few thing mostly as I’m new :slight_smile:

I really like the pop-up about community guidelines - I was just thinking about that when writing my first post! So now I can read it… ok done and can refer back to :slight_smile:

###1st Suggestion - Word Look-up
I found a few words I wasn’t sure of and thought it would make sense on the website to be able to find the meaning of a word quickly. Maybe especially reading the guidelines, but also on the whole on the site if that’s also possible.

Finding rather a definition instead of perhaps assuming or guessing from context and/or externally pursuing definitions might help in terms of less time, look up effort, etc…

Basically also avoids going off to another website finding the definition and then thinking/matching how it relates to initial document or paragraph… A mouse over would be ideal though I would skip any solutions involving GO0gl£ to achieve this.

Examples of words I needed to check: Ad Hominem and Legalese.

(The words I had to look up separately / away from site)

###2nd Suggestion - Dictionary Software (portable/hot-key look-up):
For those that want a dictionary / thesaurus at had any time from any application, I recommend the portable version of WordWeb Pro… where you can highlight any word, press hot key and it will pop-up with definition… that’s my second suggestion for a real gem in life to learn up words with a hot key on the fly and understand things… I might have an idea where to get the portable version if you ask for it.

###Side-comment… [edited]
[now merged with other posts to avoid repetition / respect topic title]
…basically about not being into GO0gl£ and putting everything through it.

Ok, would it help, if I just add explanations of those terms in the guidelines?

Something like that would be nice. Aren’t there browser plugins that do that? I think it would be rather difficult to do that via code that was embedded into the forum.

What do you mean by “portable version” anyway? Please tell me what you know.

That part of your post is very hard to comprehend. Could you please try to write it down in a manner that can easily be understood by most people? Thanks. :slightly_smiling:

Yes it would help to add explanations or a line how you mean it (most words things have many meanings and context but how you mean it really helps)

portable as in portable applications (mostly open source people making open source apps standalone/not needing OS registry or leaving OS registry clean)
[edited & added off-line dictionary links in order of my experience & usage]

I can understand it may be difficult and I personally would assume it would be google related which would be a turn off for me… by the way is lots of this site plugged in to or using google ? Just for my knowledge (I think that would personally good to mention somewhere too)

My personalisation at the end simply put says that I do not support google by using their services and aside from that I prefer to focus on keeping it off-line & as independent as possible… to avoid big power accumulation which inevitably involves big mistakes in decision making, over-growth or services suddenly changing or being outdated very fast. Added to that I believe in, overall, less traffic / bandwidth / on-line attachment and resources (less energy consumption basically, at least until we have a way that really works, because a lot I see is time consumption and repeated knowledge and intention without progressing or having a clear next stage in the circle)

Now that you have replied, it has extended the page much more by having the quoted parts repeated. I think it’s served it’s purpose between me and you but moving on maybe it’s more beneficial that we remove these parts (if you don’t mind) as there is not much need for others (if you agree and feel the quoted parts of the page are repetition)

In fact I don’t mind if you or I re-write the initial comment to something short or sweeter. I personally smiled and felt it quite a task to understand what it is you are asking by “Could you please try to write it down in a manner that can easily be understood by most people?” hehe, as it seemed to be referring to something tangible or something defined when referring to ‘most people’… hehe seems to be asking for more of the same

At the same time as asking this it seemed you included yourself as that ‘most people’ (maybe you didn’t AND perhaps without knowing excluded me somewhat from that group)

My advice is to keep it practice or less generalised - something like “short very simplified sentences please” and mentioning that you personally didn’t understand and not trying to talk / represent ‘most people’… that would make more practical sense…
or if you still support your own idea of writing “it down in a manner that can easily be understood by most people?” maybe I could have some example of that and see how we can check out ‘most people’ in a way that isn’t just your opinion. :slightly_smiling:
I think this would benefit us both or at least I and perhaps others to make it practical or personal to what you need or would like to see… like shorter / less complicated sentences.

Thanks for reply and let me know I can re-write this page and simplify it.

This page doesn’t rely on Google services. It’s based on the Discourse forum software, and is hosted on a virtual private server at Digital Ocean.

Ok, thanks, that was slightly easier to understand than what you’ve written before.

Honestly, what you’ve just written there lets me question your sanity. Are you seriously prioritizing minimal energy and virtual space considerations over useful information and context for humans? Every person with some working common sense would say that’s crazy.

Your way of expressing yourself is highly unusual. I have formed a couple of hypothesis as why that might be the case:

  1. You might be very young
  2. You might not be a native English speaker
  3. You might have certain psychological dispositions, which make it difficult for you to write so that other people can clearly understand what you mean
  4. You might be trolling

My guess is that the reasons are a combination of 1., 2., and 3.

If I am wrong, I am sorry to have made those suggestions, but this is how your writing appears to me. In any case, your writing style is difficult to understand for everyone who does not share it, including me. Please try to write so that your writing can be understood by neurotypical (psychologically regular) English speaking persons.

I think this is really interesting, What you say involves some assumptions, etiquette and judgements that prove my point somewhat and run into typical problems of language and how things are going to work with people and on top of that seem to focus on definitions not relating to me. Apology not fully accepted until you read more and think.

So ‘common sense’ - another vague and misleading word and *more importantly’ an idea outside of what you or I could specifically disassemble for our purpose right here and (no-one elses)…

Add to that - ‘crazy’… again… so many better words even in my limited vocabulary, but no you had to go there!
Without lowering what you say in value in any way and trying help with interpreting what you say I could assume part of what you want to say is formed of these sentences and not vague opinions:

I feel you are over-focused, over-looking XYZ
or focusing to a high level in way way unappreciated by me and also ignoring these things…

Well let’s not expend energy to the level of frustration. It didn’t seem to hit home about general words of perspectives or commonly used general words (even if many use it, doesn’t mean it’s right). So, this is 2nd time I mention it.

If you would like to define crazy then please feel free. But at the same time looking at your next example of spending time listing those things / profiling me somewhat I think it may be better left unsaid as we might still have difference in how we articulate things. I feel it would be going in the wrong direction mentioning any more generalities or adding to the list of names (though it’s good to hear the honesty).
Crazy has at least 5 different ways of saying it so I think honing your words is more practical to myself and potentially others, even if it delays you in thinking about them when you reply (it has practical application of achieving good conversation). For example “good” in the previous sentence means “accurate” in this context.

On to the next! Young, not native, psychological dispositions, trolling… hehe this is exactly why people ignore each other… it seems you’re well focused on those things and willing to assume or spend energy but perhaps distracting yourself from any gems you might find and given up.

I accept there is a tolerance by everyone, but people who focus more on having a set expectation and standard of English, or any etiquette of this kind are only going to find people and things in certain few ways and limit themselves severely among people who are simply different.
At the same time those people can find themselves severely alienating others purely because of the way they speak instead of taking the best of what they said… and being happy with that.

If you have a tolerance that is becoming impatient or finding the energy or time frustrating, no problem. Let’s take a time-out. Nothing wrong with that.

This example of language is perhaps a great example of why people run into trouble very easily and it’s no-one’s fault. It just is. My English is how it is and so is yours. Please see the benefit from letting go of some of your expectations in language. You will loose a lot of other people’s values by trying to make them write like you or most people (and there’s always change of self-change too). My English might be just as good or not even comparable. It seems one is having more trouble than the other and THAT is the important part for me. Only you know that and can sit with why that is.

I can why people group up into people that speak the same as them or say less in groups because ultimately less hassle, less trouble and potentially less insult! But we’re here to make change and make a good method for that. English is definitely going to be different, you can become comfortable with that or enjoy the asking ‘what do you mean by that bit’ because that is part of the the infinite (or even finite) nature of speaking, you must go so deep and then back up and out again to understand.

I think we can leave it there safely, what do you think? (I’m not slamming doors, or apportioning blame. I we naturally reached limits (I have) in conversation and difference in opinion (and should not reflect badly on the other. Everyone gets tired.)

Good idea. It would be a really nice feature to have. Unfortunately I fear it’s not high enough priority to justify anyone spending more than 30 minutes to set it up, and I’m guessing it’s more than 30 minutes work. :frowning:

In the meantime, everyone should install (it does what you want, it’s open, and it works offline)

1 Like

Thanks for your insightful reply. It shows me that you are serious, intelligent, and have benevolent intentions. :innocent:

I’ll mainly answer to the following quote of yours, because it lies at the core of the issue with communication:

Of course, you have the possibility to deviate from standard usage and implicit norms of the English language. You can also use grammatically incorrect ways of expressing yourself, but if you do, at least you should be conscious about actually doing that. And since you are deviating from a useful norm, by writing in an unusual, and not necessarily correct, version of English, you should at least explain why you do that. Otherwise such a writing style can easily be interpreted as being impolite, since you are imposing heavy parsing costs on the reader without any apology or excuse. You can claim:

A priori that might be true. Perhaps it’s only a few people who have problems with understanding your English. I asked a couple of members of the forum (I won’t tell who) about how they would describe your language and they used words like:


So, at least it’s not only me. Other people have difficulties understanding your English, whether anyone likes that fact or not.

You rightfully mention something along the lines of the use of language correlating with different ways of thinking. That much is true, especially when it comes to specialist jargon. But usually (though not always) there is a good reason for special language, for example because common language is not precise enough to explain certain concepts. Perhaps the problem comes from us coming from different (sub)cultures who use a very particular way of communicating. I don’t know. If so, I would like to be enlightened about that. :sun_with_face: Anyway, I appreciate diversity, but in the end, if we speak too different languages, our exchanges will be very inefficient, which makes them relatively frustrating.

At least, I acknowledge that communication is a very difficult problem, and that I also sometimes struggle expressing myself in a fully appropriate and comprehensible way. Communication is an issue that I take very seriously in this forum – perhaps even seemingly neurotically seriously. That’s because I realize that good communication is a cornerstone for transporting your ideas and messages truthfully, which is how you can get other people to change their minds. If everyone changed their minds to the better, the world would become a better place. :grin:

But if you don’t put a lot of effort into communicating well, the chance that your ideas are accepted becomes rather slim. That’s why I want to create a culture of good communication in this forum. Because I want us to become effective at improving the world. It may be the case that I occasionally fail to uphold my own standards every time, but I’m still just an imperfect human, and I’m still experimenting with different methods of communication. :microscope:

I know that it can be experienced as very annoying when I stress these communication issues, but they are really important – and most people really underestimate how important they are. I am frustrated about how difficult it is for progressive rational futuristic people to change the world to the better. Well, that’s how it is at the moment. You can of course blame the stupidity of the world and its inhabitants, and there’s some truth to that. But that’s not a constructive point of view. A more constructive point of view is trying to become better at changing the world, by learning how to communicate better, and by developing other useful skills. That’s a part of the culture of this community – or at least it should be.

You might be frustrated about me still rambling about that issue, instead of focusing on the potential valuable points that you offer. Let’s just say that I want this important point to be addressed properly at least once. Afterwards, we can try to focus more on the content of your posts. Deal?

My guess is very high degree of probability that Spirit is not a native English speaker.

3 is possible but unlikely.

4 almost certainly yes, but the good kind. (my definition of ‘troll’ is probably non-standard)

Not true. Speak for yourself.

I think Radivis has been slightly rude, but I know why and I don’t really blame him.

I’m guessing Spirit could communicate ‘in a manner that can easily be understood by most people’ but it would take Spirit much more time, and so Spirit chooses not to.

If Spirit continues to communicate in the same way, Radivis will probably choose to mostly ignore Spirit. Which is forgiveable.

and i should add that I don’t think Radivis (or anyone else here) will think ‘bah. This person is useless, I have no desire to talk to them, I’m going to choose to pretend they dont exist’. It will be more a case of him just not getting around to spending the time to reply much, because understanding his posts takes a lot of effort, so the reward/time will (probably) be smaller, so other tasks will get higher priorities, and he just won’t get around to dealing with the lower priority things cos he doesn’t have enough time to do everything that he would like to.

1 Like

I think you are right about continuing discussion, but for me it’s not frustration, simply acceptance that we’re different and have limits and to just enjoy what we can. I didn’t enjoy some of your bits.
I’m trying not to claim on my part that communication or the general words are definitely this or that. I feel this claim is over-reaching and want less to do with it. To enjoy more other things now that I’m here is a good way to go for me.

It didn’t feel good to have to explain myself when it was seen as ‘deviating from a useful norm’… and that I should explain why ‘I do it’. How I became this way is perhaps more what you’re asking and this can even be beyond my scope or usefulness, because it just is… until I decide with some words that it isn’t and change myslef. General or opinionated type words will not work with me and I can across it too many time here already.

Imagine the future and change but still expecting people to think in the same way? It doesn’t work for me and I feel it holds back the future or latches on to the past. I don’t feel I should feel I’m the one deviating necessarily and wanting to focus on that.

‘Speak for yourself’ is a good comment I’d repeat. It keeps scope and doesn’t assume / claim things outside of actually being able to be what you are without looking at other or other changing things which have other reasons without running into more conversational problems that distract from each others essence.

It didn’t feel good measuring my English with a handful of other people, and again, calling out select names about it. Giving the small pool you tried (from this forum) is not enough for me to change in a way I haven’t seen I’d want to from you (though I haven’t omitted it from possibility either). Maybe it feels good for you to show why people stick to norms and that the stero-type of ‘normal’ feels comfortable for you or validating. But the truth for me and most people is that normal or norms change regularly enough to forget this concept, so if anyone would say (if I may change what you said slightly) you are not normal then it’s a reflection of not understanding it all is changing though it seems for people an anchor during their time. I and other want people to change and I definitely think sticking to norms stagnates and hold people back. You felt justified perhaps. Change is seen as ‘difficult’ or hard to deal with. I’m not proposing to help or suggest much more directly with you, without your own assistance or choice, it’s not even half way or possible.

I believe this exchange has reach it’s peak or limit and rather than trying to explain more and more, I think it’s good to learn/see more some other things rather than continue further. It’s been great so far! It could be you’re not flexible enough in my view, totally inflexible either but instead of names I guess the feeling instead is most important of what I’ll get out of it… instead of pin-pointing words and pointing… you normal person :wink:

‘He really can’t get passed that part’ is feeling that’s being said to me and “try not to push it further” as other things will come into play, much like taking to someone at a party and realising “they have big expectations they maybe they can work out by themselves for now!”… rather than with others. Feels like I would be used more than willing and slightly drained by a conversational vampire - not sure I can help you more work it out.
People who also try too hard in communication can also bottleneck and create that kind of barrier on their own (doesn’t need much effort from the other) and while long text by me I can see increases chance of the other person bottlenecking, one can still just take what they can and let it sit seeing as ‘I don’t understand’ has been said a lot already.

You would like to create a culture of communicating well. I think you’re missing a big part of that puzzle and going for conformity or something less dynamic, even underestimating yourself but repeating what you think it should be rather than feel or some other way which isn’t always definable. Think about if you’ve been this way a long time and if it’s giving you different results or not. Is it just talking on computers for example - no need reply about any of this, it just may or may not help (you choose). Computer in between us, may not be able to achieve something as a result… I may have made my excuses and left already. At least writing it has other benefits.

For your question at the end I think I’ve given enough and feel at a nice enough level to still mosey around without trying to avoid you too much. I can’t see much more not in this particular area or creating something new in thought or practical terms from it. I’d like to achieve something achievable and I accept there are limits. Consuming time in this way is not my idea of more fun so what you said rambling is about right and only using your term as it’s probably more understandable by yourself. Maybe another part of the forum for me so for now it’s a no deal to focus on more here and less ‘we’ but it’s been great. Just to be even more clearer, I think letting it sit I think is the most ‘efficient’ way.

Yeah, I understand. But I feel that maybe you’re being ‘over sensitive’. It’s not a bad thing, as such, but if you actually genuinely feel upset about anything that’s been said in this thread then my advice would just be to ‘toughen up’.

EDIT: cos unfortunately (maybe unfortunately) you dont live in a universe full of lovey-dovey animals that spend a lot of effort empathising and making sure that they don’t hurt you emotionally. Should that be what we aim for in the future? I dont even know. maybe.

This is a very good point, and a topic that I think about a lot.

If you’re keen to spend more time in this community, I recommend you introduce yourself in the intro board. Focus on what skills/resources you have, how you think you can help us. How you plan to spend your time. e.g. projects/fields you want to work on, and what kind of help from us could be useful to you.

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We are trying to actively change the world here. We can’t do that by retreating into a silent corner and trying to be so nice to one another than we lose the ability to cope with the ruthless world on the outside. So, the advice to “toughen up” is probably the correct one.

You’re definitely making active change here. Both of you.

Some in a positive way and some by inferring and risking insulting another person with your side-tracking writings in probabilities and guess-work. Please scroll up and have a look at the topic title too.

##If the above doesn’t summarise it enough for you and why a ‘hypothesis’ or list in the middle of this might not be the amazingly positive change (for either of us) then see below as a comprehensive practical way of replying.

####A note observed:
I do note, Radivis, that you wrote in reply “Thanks for your insightful reply. It shows me that you are serious, intelligent, and have benevolent intentions.”. This did help somewhat to your initial comment, and good in some ways that I didn’t reply sooner, but still leaves it there and has seems it;s likely to happen again which is also part of my dissatisfaction (and to serve the next person should that situation exist)- it’s mainly with your style of requiring a response from a seemingly more negative, pessimistic, distraction-based stand-point…

Taking a lot of the wrong type of energy to sustain / remain in conversation and often the wrong kind of defensive position at the same time as other stuff is what I’m quite sure many do not want to find themselves in… to ‘prove’ to sceptical / quick reaching people that they are good to them because of the effort they need to spend understanding first why the has such a lack of belief… can feel like a losing game or partnership. Why bother if you don’t get help (though I rarely t give this excuse).
Calling them a troll or including adding ‘might’ to everything before those kinds of words seem like trying to hide behind or avoid totally falling flat on one’s face and could all well benefit me / us from those thoughts staying in your head! At least until it has some kind of practicality.
More than that is the need to rely on someone else in the future of change, the admin no less! A tricky situation perhaps, but I would have said the same to any user and I’m kind of glad it’s someone who can take this and find some benefit / potential from it. Part of this change could be trying to have some of the best chat and change going here… but further willingness to validate someone else using this method / style, is frankly what I don’t want to have to do again.

So after I overcame a variety of feelings - in some subtle and sharp ways - including the sharp momentary impulse to really ‘show you’ what a troll is… and because I think others may share this impulse and other I wrote something long and clear instead…

##Main things I’m hearing…

  • You’re here on this forum to change the world but that maybe makes it OK to write publicly or in this forum topic those things listed above commenting / guessing things related personally about my age, native language, psychological disposition, and infer further that I am trolling.

  • You had more major doubts about my communication and language that have be satisfied but still leave me with doubts about your own sudden topics change / confidence / good-will or overall positiveness.

  • After the comment validating me and initial reply, it’s is now considered ‘insightful’ and you never mentioned any of what you said initially the more potentially negative / unconstructive / un-robust / pessimistic part… the process that might not have achieved anything other than a sudden oh ok fine you’re ok. In my mind I was still writing similar to what I was before only happen to reach something you understood more than previously! That might not all be credited to me! Or might not be the case all the time from now. Expect it!

  • You want to welcome people to work together but could consider after accusing someone or these tones are not the way (for sure).

  • You were satisfied after I wrote again but don’t see the insult which will regularly cause more damage without a process to redeem it, unless I cared further.

  • Flipping between such extremes of giving people newcomers or long-writers the ok can be problematic, especially in a short space of time.

#A few questions to find out more how this works for you personally
All in the name of change in the world. Yes. Your guessing seems to have cost my feelings, and demoted my view of adding much more related to you in this forum (which also seems mostly yours as creator and admin of it… therefore I have more chance of coming across this again and need to consider that)… maybe it’s also about what this forum has become, is now or will become.
I want to focus on you rather than representing ideals in the forum. Thanks.

Again I appreciate the validation comment (all of one or two lines of sweat for you I’m sure phaw wipe your sweat for the work you did compared to mine in defending and having to explain every thing). Let me say without less guess that not much of what you guessed counted to any positive or progressive change, did it? Even with putting my feelings aside, isn’t it just a waste / un-useful use of speech / energy / which didn’t accomplish / risk much?**

##I have some more practical questions
I think this would show a lot about those writing about me in such ways and would help me in the future understand your own standpoints (not just to identify any further weakness in you). This would happen sooner or later I suppose so it’s not in any major anger and good again to be honest.

  • Don’t you think the ‘toughen-up’ response is a bit of an excuse for unsubstantiated out-of-scope comments towards another member when there is another topic at hand?

  • Topic to remind you is ’ Guideline Definitions & Terminology’ !

  • Do you think that when one has reached a certain level of ‘toughness’ in the world, that further toughness just encourages more of the same thing?

  • If your opinion that the world is ‘ruthless’ that this might be only your own outlook and an assumption I might not share or want to join in by being more hard in that particular way, on the ladder of ‘ruthlessness’ or something less than ‘ruthless’ to deal with things that way?

  • Could I achieve further level of toughness and reinforce my own comments to you both with a similar ‘toughen up’ get used to it approach with my own speech? (This may help adopt another style where I don’t join you, but can see what happens taking similar aspects of it)

  • Do you think it encourages people to get more personal with you too?

  • Do you think adding to the conversation, inside or outside of the actual topic, your own doubts and periphery thoughts help?

  • Do you think guessing / inferring across so many persons personal areas, especially with a new member, was wise in hindsight?

  • Would you feel it caring for if point 1-4 were applied to you personal too, perhaps in slightly different way on this forum (doesn’t have to replicate it or take it to any extreme) and offer to you a similar experience where ‘toughen up’ would be offered as a general response should you find it hard to swallow? (on a forum trying to achieve world change together)

  • Even if you were right in the case 1-4, Radvis, how do you think it helped the conversation?..

  • and if 4 of those guesses were wrong… how do you think it would look/feel after knowing how far wrong you were…?

  • Would it make much of a difference if you were less wrong or right…? would you still feel the same as replied above answer?

  • Do you think it fell on you / looked badly at all to talk about things like this, slight out on a limb let’s say?.. (in or outside of topic header)

  • On writing it do you remember saying at any time to yourself:

  • “ha look at this bit of clever writing, I bet I’m right…” ?

  • “I was right” ?

  • Did you ever feel

  • err I could really wrong here (maybe I should edit that)

  • none of this is tangibly achieving anything

  • look how inconsiderate I can be

  • look how I can get most things wrong all in one go

  • I gave more chance to demotivating another by taking topic focus away.

##Other main questions

  • Have your interactions with others in the past (here or not) been mostly reaction-based conversations or attack/defiend scenarios in name of ‘changing the world’ where there might have been lots of replies on the page, but actually it’s still the personally offended party attacking back or defending plus those around discussing someone else’s problem / psychology / expectations…?
  • Was this all instead of any substantial clear processing of healthy ideas and further from working with them?
  • What are the benefits of these personal guesses / inferences / ‘hypothesis’?
  • Do you think there is more benefit or risk in this kind of ‘hypothesis’?
  • Is it better kept to one’s self?
  • Does this create a distraction with so many guesses instead of actually doing more tangible / visibly healthy things like actual change in the world?
  • Is there a cost to another being when you are personally focusing on them in this way at the same time as adding more to the page that could being wrong/right… or partially wrong/right in some or all of your guesses?
  • Does this kind of writing encourage more of the same?
  • Is it your preference that more should write like that? (maybe not all, but more?)
  • Does the relationship pay or suffer when such unsure claims enter into conversation?
  • Should it fall on my shoulders (or others in the future) to spend the energy to defend such accusations / guesses?
  • Could you focus on improving and saying things would lead to more obvious positive outcomes from rather than hypothesis out-loud / inferences / guesses / probabilities / suspicions etc?
  • It would be good to know for the level of personal conduct with you both (and those that would agree mostly with you) that there can’t be any improvement of this kind of talk/distraction made above… rather sticking to more careful writing? I personally find it would be cause for consideration for me and just a sort of lacking / less value I could assume or expect in further discussion (of course this is still just my opinion)
  • If extending yourselves too far without any kind of certain or safe benefit lands us all in writing far more crap compared to the other work possible… and more unwanted writing fills up this space or other space…
  • Do we want more of this kind of writing explaining things without a more positive source of inspiration?.. (it takes more of a level head to spend all this time explaining it, and also in reading it I’m sure… in real life you might agree it might be EVEN HARDER to separate all this and refine it and find the time and moment between each other. A quick few words in a ‘hypothesis’ or similar I feel is easy, less-skilled and frequently damaging to all.
  • Do you think after reading a few of my posts, in hindsight, that your comment helped me to see / experience more incorrect judgements in my world?
  • Do you think you could provide more healthy ones experience whilst I’m with you in the belief we can work this out / write more on this forum?

##Other main questions

  • Do you enjoy taking things to a personal level ?
  • do you think it regularly helps to repeat this kind of ‘hypothesis’ aloud (perhaps less is best for me or even keeping to yourself)
  • do you think it gives you a quicker and better reply but risking someone else’s feelings ? (it may be practical more provable, but the quality is perhaps the loss in the speed of reply)
  • In some seriousness and to keep my own sense of value here, it’s very healthy to know if really you enjoy this kind of risk (that I see at least)… this is so I can expect more if it’s the case and just accept those replies to points mentioned as being more towards your answer… and simply how things lie for you…Someone else’s idea of entertainment / passing time, even I may call it forum deficiency in some way or abuse if repeated, is good to know for expectations and to see how I could pass time further here in the general scheme of things. (to pass the time to put it as a more neutral term).
  • How productive would you feel it if someone on a forum commented about your age, native-ness, psychological disposition and inferring that you might be trolling… because the amount they or their mates didn’t understand…
  • Is there a missing level of optimism that you can see anywhere from your comments?
  • Do you think a ‘toughen up’ process and is something healthy with that statement alone can help someone see what you mean ?
  • What does ‘toughen up’ mean for you?
  • If you still assume the already ‘ruthless’ environment exists and often doesn’t care or value you personally do you think ‘toughen up’ helps that process? or understands what to do next? Or think it applies to me?
  • Which level of ‘toughen up’ do I live up to, your level? or those ‘ruthless’ outside? Is there a limit or something you can quantify enough for me to use practically?

##Another set of questions

  • Should you consider reducing your own toughness?
  • Should I have not written anything more here as it was not useful?
  • Should I have accepted/ignored this kind of speculation by forum admin + another member towards me directly where they guess another members age, native language situation, psychological disposition, and infer I may be trolling, purely because I write differently to them or a lot as see that as something more negative?
  • Can you tell me how is that going to make a change when you need to write on a forum in the first place?
  • Can you see how hard it is to do a concise good job instead of a lengthy / more time taking good job?
  • Do you think you would have said the same to my face?
  • Do you think damage / un-healthyness can be regularly attached to focusing and guessing / even when being partially right… or even mostly wrong… or not knowing either way?
  • Do you agree the trouble with those guesses / speculations / suspicions in thoughts / paranoia towards another member is that there is a price to pay for such attempts to seemingly confirm one’s own intelligence or use another person time to test it?
  • Do you think people taking this position with others only lumps more weight and negative energy onto that person without any clear constructive outcome and still risk spending our feelings and time either way?
  • Are you more interested in forcing change by reaction (people defending themselves to your fears / doubts / scepticism / pessimism etc) rather than by constructive 'taking the best I can from this person and let’s see what we can actually do types of relationship?
  • The above even with ‘trolls’?
  • Inferring anyone is a troll is an un-useful / disrespectful statement and bad practice unless you find a way of converting that for good between both parties and explaining perhaps the component parts of the name or grouping ‘troll’ better (it’s not very hard)… this way you’re not just you assuming their position to the extent they can easily assume it themselves (disconnecting, telling you to fuck off, spam you, personally attacking you and then saying “ha, I told you they were a troll !” (summary: it’s the reaction of being called something like a troll that regularly encourages more of it)…
  • do you think those who wanted just to find their place in the world and get to work doing the ‘good stuff’ for themselves and others will come here looking for personal indifference?
  • …and people pointing to them, calling them names or trying to group them, profile is better than actually working on something worthwhile and sticking to the actual speech said.


  • This is a constructive work-in-progress complaint as best as I’d like to describe it. Didn’t want to name it at the beginning, but it’s no doubt in the complaint category. I would flag it if you didn’t see / run everything anyway (being admin hasn’t made a big difference to me in writing, only to you giving added reason to play it more safe. It’s not doubt a temptation or danger to all users and could consider it experience when you see it next time)

  • I don’t want the word complaint to be the only word to describe this. Just reading and responding with a little more constructive clarity and careful revision in response to it would be appreciated. I’m still a genuine person here and was from the start. Burn that into you brain. At the same time I’m not only about remaining in some sort of hurt position.
    I’m also evaluating your ability to change in the future.

##Addressing only user: notatroll peter

  • Do you feel ok about jumping in with someone else’s judgement and probabilities… ( 1, 2, 3, 4 )
  • Does it help you feel more together answering the above?
  • And would you have made such a comment and write it yourself if someone would not having done it already? EDITED: If you do partially or completely then consider some of the points above if not all merely as a handy double-check list and feeling to why not or how keeping it to yourself can benefit everyone whilst still allowing time to answer any of your feelings about someone / their writing.

##Final note

  • being responsibility to my future self and those in the world get it clear using these questions is really useful and what some part of this great forum can be about (at least one post anyway)… it may be I accept what you say and still continue my search for a purer / acceptable working scenario (or whatever it is I’m looking for) whilst using this less. I do think hard and fast can trip over far too easily, so if you think you’re ahead in so way, you patience and remembering what it was like before you levelled up, is appreciated.
    Overall optimistic handling things is what I’m looking for to keep levelling and avoiding repetitions in any previous problems which I have definitely observed by others and experienced personally too in a multitude of formats probably forums, lists and chat mainly.
    To really find the ‘work’ I’m search for and want to be provided / make for others is what I want to keep doing what well before I too pass. Achieving the best we can with others does need two for more things to happen (unfortunately or fortunately)… and not just continuing my 1 player stuff (!) … which I assume there are a lot of out there, same short lopp every day mainly from lack of alternatives / options / teachers and breakages in methodology / flexibility / expectation (and yes maybe the ‘ruthlessness’ too). Plenty of good people out there to stay busy with.
    Perhaps expression of this longer kind is something I can help with… but not so much personally in this mid-topic type flow or something that involves mainly more fear-based / sceptical forms of communication that seems to be rife in the world and encourages only more as it’s weak counter-punch - I don’t think most people are into this kind of sudden change using this way and always regret it or not having the answer to such regular occurrences and emotions.
    Fortunately I think it’s better to be determined to keep the belief to follow up and keep at it. and keep focus. Of course, it can also be considered a skill if one has quit earlier to avoid things that didn’t increase value… but that often takes two and with hindsight to answer so herein is the problem… I felt I was positive and still am, you? Perhaps we can continue with what we have left and make things right as best we can do…



True, but on the other hand, we don’t want to become like ‘them’.
I think this is the point Spirit is trying to make in a very long-winded way!
I guess Jesus did the right thing. Teach/lead by example.

and always ‘forgive them, for they know not what they do’



I would have called you a troll. I wouldn’t have said anything about age or native lang or mental abnormalities.

I’m now pretty sure that you’re doing it deliberately. Probably more in a sub conscious way, rather than consciously thinking ‘hehe, I’m going to make this sentence ambiguous and hard to read/understand’, but still there is intention, it’s not purely accidental.

EDIT: best guess: you’re doing it because you think leaving things a bit open/ambiguous is cute/poetical. I strongly disagree (in your case).

Formal observations, perhaps seemingly besides the point

You make a lot of very interesting and valid points. I really like that. There’s only the issue that those are so many points at once in one single big post. I used a word counting tool that told me is was 2782 words long. That’s a bit much – but of course really understandable considering your state of mind. Perhaps I might not be bothered by your post being so long, if it didn’t also contain dozens of questions. Do you honestly expect me to answer every single question of yours? And that’s an honest question. I do not know what kind of answer you expect me to write. Do you see some of your questions as rhetorical? If yes, it would be inappropriate for me to answer them. It would help me a lot, if you could send me a list of priorities, which issues I should address first, or in detail, or actually at all. I admit that this may seem to be an unreasonable request in such a loaded situation as this, but perhaps you are open to that. If you think that request isn’t appropriate, feel free to ignore it.

Really, your questions are often good, and I’d like to answer at least to some of them, but there are so many at once. Perhaps, if you give me a month, I could try, but by then most things might already have been settled some way or another. Your post feels to me as if I got 10 pages of questions that I should answer in an exam situation within 90 minutes or so. :open_mouth: It’s daunting! :cold_sweat:

But by reacting in that way, you actually make one point especially clear: This is the kind of reaction that can happen when someone gets offended by something that was written in a rather insensitive way. Even only for demonstrating that single point, your post has a remarkable brilliance of its own! :hushed: Really, you make the costs for acting in provocative, confrontational, and insensitive ways abundantly clear! I have not wished for such an exchange, and you really make me regret what I have written.

I am sorry!

What I’ve done did a great disservice to the atmosphere of this forum, and thanks to you I have become acutely aware of that. I hope you can accept my apologies, @Spirit, even if they come bundled with explanations that might feel insulting on their own. It’s just that I see so much value in pointing out the dynamics in our exchange. :microscope: This exchange is setting a precedent that will allow future readers and members of the Fractal Future Forum to learn and to avoid similar mistakes in the future.

What we can learn from this (directed at everyone)

Some readers may realize that I haven’t argued from a point of empathy, but rather from a point of self-interest. And that might be interesting in its own right. I could have argued that I empathise with Spirit’s situation, and that I sense that Spirit is hurt. That might possibly clash with my general advice to “toughen up”, and might not seem very coherent or believable. So, I’m demonstrating that there are other reasons to care about the feelings of others. Perhaps some may interpret that as insensitive move from me, but I’m willing to pay that price in order to make an important point!

The golden rule is not so great

One might of course argue that one should not do to others what one doesn’t wish upon oneself. That’s the golden rule, but I think that it’s actually a weak ethical guideline and often inappropriate. You might want to consider the possibility (which may contain perhaps more than a grain of truth) that I occasionally communicate in a brash, direct, and criticising way, because I would actually like that others communicate with me in a more brash, direct, and criticising way! Sometimes, I find an atmosphere of careful niceness, politeness, and avoidance of criticism slightly unpleasant. It stops others from telling me the faults they see in me. I mean, they might be wrong in 90% of all cases, but if they are right in the remaining 10%, they are perhaps telling me something I desperately need in order to develop myself further.

However, if I turned this version of the golden rule into a working principle for me, I would impose my own needs, wishes, and desires on a whole community. That might work for some members of the community, but for others it would do a great disservice!

Can enlightened self-interest be any better?

Now it might seem weird that a behaviour that is based on enlightened self-interest would be ethically superior to behaviour based on the golden rule. But that’s just because the golden rule really is way too weak in reality – at least in some cases. I’m not saying that enlightened self-interest is the best ethical basis there is. It’s just that it’s sufficiently good for very many cases – and better than the golden rule in some cases.

The problem with dealing in reckless ways is that it may cause severe consequences to happen. That especially includes consequences that one really hasn’t expected, because one wasn’t smart or thoughtful enough to see them coming! Like Spirit’s post I am replying to now. I did not expect to have to deal with something like that. I really didn’t. I mean, I could try to justify my way of acting in a way that may make it look rational – a priori (in the beginning). But me expressing possibly insulting assumptions publicly was very irrational, a posteriori (in the end). I had other plans for this evening. They got nuked, and it’s my own fault. :bomb:

So, a core lesson to learn is:

Be nice to people, or they might react in ways that totally thwart your plans!

Does that seem to egoistic? Perhaps it is, but it’s hard to argue against the effectiveness of appealing to egoistic interests! This is not to say that I was in any way opposed to altruism (or variants thereof). It’s just that applied enlightened egoism is enough to be ethical in a lot of circumstances. Also, enlightened egoism is often a more resilient ground for ethical practice. That’s a practical consideration which often gets ignored in abstract ethical debates.

Last words of this reply

Anyway, I want to set a positive example and terminate my post here, before it becomes too long. It’s slightly above 1000 words now. I hope that’s a length that can be seen as acceptable by most forum readers. I am aware that I didn’t address many of the issues that Spirit has raised. Replies to those are needed, and they will come. But for now, I hope that this reply suffices.

Thank you for your attention. More power to you! :slightly_smiling:







Self confidence.

EDIT: Also not expecting to be spoon fed and generally treated like a weakling child that has not yet got a fully developed brain/philosophy.



No. I think you might have confused passive toughness with aggression or strength or something.

No. The only issue is time/energy. It has nothing to do with being tough or not.

I made it clear when I said “I think Radivis has been slightly rude, but I know why and I don’t really blame him.”

Obviously one should never be rude.

But if it takes a million questions to make you learn that, then I guess Spirit did good. I told you: ‘the good kind of troll’.