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Automation, Business Information Technology, Computing (ABITC). Competition with ourselves... Degrades the way of life... Loses / Exchanges more values as we go

economics
psychology

#1

###Finished major editing. Not doing any major edits here
Now moved it to my own site to look at it there using the Auto-TOC (automatic table of contents) function which is near essential for long pieces of work like this (for me at least). Reading order of headers and looking at the header index is so much clearer like that so it’s there now. Click to see it now.


My usual ‘Writing Style’ Disclaimer may help those ‘sensitive’ in reading, though I cover it below
This topic is made from my parts previously written elsewhere on the forum. This effort is towards making more of a relevant or complete post in one place.
I suggest you check the header titles first by skipping through the text and see if it interests you. The headers should indicate if it’s a good read or not. A lot is re-written to help give points for your own self-realisations. I think this topic is something you’re sure to come across as the frequently underlying part of any on-line / internet topic debate / lifestyle choice… since it’s all connected (this word in all it’s meanings)…

For my own personal reasons of I’m not currently encouraging chat or reply about it all. Some you know, some you will realise… again it’s to help contribute towards your own missions of realisations and not push anything other than what I see makes perfect sense. Revisions will continue nonetheless to improve points and develop the writing. Anything not clear, will be. I’ve edited it for a long time already and long-term I see a quality and achievement in that.

###Why write such a mass
Part of why I write is the feeling coming from a self-trapped position or position of output which is either undesired (almost involuntary or uncontrollable) or not of percieved quality possible. I’m just doing shit every day basically and that doesn’t validate, in my eyes, usage of some many different kinds of components and energy during existence… Over this perhaps reflects life has become reduced to “1’s or 0’s” which you can assume your’re points about what being a 1 or 0 means and how boring / almost-dead that is.

##Introduction and Definition: Automation

###Automation (noun)

  1. The act of implementing the control of equipment with advanced technology; usually involving electronic hardware
  2. The condition of being automatically operated or controlled
  3. Equipment used to achieve automatic control or operation

[WordWeb.info]

Icon / picture inspiration > > :car::taxi::police_car::ambulance::minibus::trolleybus::oncoming_bus::bus::tram::station::light_rail::train2::bullettrain_side::monorail::train::rocket: !


##How I feel - Confusion…

I think I’m stuck between a personal computer and automation myself in the outside world… not much else to do it may seem directly connected with survival… I became not sure why I’m even writing this other than computers and automation processes taking what people used to do, and make it into something else… the knowing / seeing / feeling that that is NOT right or good for my health and others I see around me complaining in various degrees… even those happy eventually having their days numbered…

##OK confusion OVER.
Now I know why I wrote some of this. Those last few sentences above sum it up. Processes have occupied the work place where human used to find work or had the potential in working in the ‘name of XYZ’ (many things) … or avoided doing it the human way because it would have to be more fair (automation is leverage). And now perhaps on top of that we have adopted
the pre-occupation of focusing only on the numbers, analysing / judging… all by numbers, weighting human consideration, input/output effects all with numbers… no wonder we made so much profit and mess we calculated out the human parts. I am no longer confused and just want to work on bringing equation back to something permanently favourable for us all.


#Reasoning and Points start here

##Inhuman / 'High efficiently’
It’s perhaps got to the stage of achieving extremely high levels of ‘efficiency’ and ‘best way’ practices, to the current less human levels which experience ourselves or are starting to see when being excluded more and more from the process equation. These missing parts are arguably the needed parts we need as humans living our daily lives…

##Moral versus Speed
Computers and automation may help to maintain and balance some things

  • too well (over efficiency)
  • not well (human design preference or balancing problems).
  • morally should not at moderate or control the chains of things.

Appreciating the beauty of life and living it somewhat… rather than maxxing it out

It seems quite logical to look at things in terms of efficiency or numbers and production but the actual appreciating life, living it beautifully I think is somewhat really over-looked.

  • How much is the jungle worth? The animals inside it? Why preserve them at all?
    Tough questions and can be very opinionated at the start.

##Not in my name… (consent) needing my permission * before *
Doing things for me (including thing done badly) and avoiding me being able to learn about a process is not good for me. I don’t want it. Do I have a choice?

##Soul-less Gate-keepers

  • Machines are the gate keepers that can ignore you or only speak electronically
  • humans at least can be asked “why are you here?”… “what’s inside these gates”… “what are people doing in there”… to some degree
  • humans are not so remotely deployed or invisible
  • human life provides a self-check for non-toxifying the planet (need to take care of the parts of the planet we work)
    ##A bit like Chess…
    This game can be strictly a calculated game when seem from an calculated point of view or as an automated task. I think this is why I mention it because you can play it for fun or you can pre-predict everything and work purely with that.
    Playing with or against ant computer = constant DEFEAT… results in GAME OVER… consistently means LOSING from anything other than the starting 10(?) moves. Yeah seems fun at the beginning and even after a few tries, but how boring is it when it’s already calculated and not much else to work with…

Autobot’s transform! Decepticons destroy! (…Transformers cartoon :articulated_lorry: )

Transformers might be the human version of Transhumanism?

##Superior Processors
Processors far surpass us and after we make them and rely on them we’re somewhat committing to the long-term future. Even if we worked together against them or didn’t want them, I’m not so sure we’d have a choice other than avoidance. It’s just no fun with a computer and hand full of people and some paid minions - the perspective that everything that can be pinned and calculated to the second, is not so consistently human.
If some kind of robot will control it beyond a certain means or detriment then = GAME OVER + less fun / human interaction

##Challenges need to exist
Challenges need to exist within humans to learn and pass on learning curves (not eliminate them).

##I’m in competition with a computer / trying to catch up

##Computer Mentality
To think it’s better for work done by a computer when we start to serve it (rather than serve ourselves) is a probably often overlooked.
If humans are in a constant war / bottleneck (slow part) process and are not comfortable or willing to compete / try to operate at the same pace seems as something automated, is a bit of a diseased/false way of looking at things (it’s faulty, compromised and corrupted going forward).

##‘Best Way’ Mentality
Overall too, thinking about doing things in a way more than what an individual is willing to do seems a bit of a diseased way of looking at things (again a way that doesn’t go forward).

##Question - What has automation brought you?
Any changes for you, making life easier, almost certainly means a taking of other ‘pieces’ elsewhere… and at the end of the day it’s all at the cost of ‘the board’… (which is basically Earth, and humans and their surroundings can be seen as being pawns somewhat


Even more so in real life… where rather than disposable wooden pieces there are millions of people under mass control of some kind, which you might find working opposite to your own efforts if not now then more surely later as time passes. ‘Mass control’ in the same paragraph just means a kind constant ‘check’ move by others to get us to move in the areas, with similar templates, and spending our time or money doing things for them or trying to get out of them… thank you very much!
Well maybe not everyone but you might get what I mean… We’re all busy :hourglass_flowing_sand: Well not all of us… time is running either way… and that’s perhaps our biggest asset, to out live it somewhat!

##Jobs
Technology creates a lot of jobs and keeps a lot of people really, really busy…

…all good until ‘busy’ is all we are just fiddling and developing the very same processes that will eventually turn on us (get sold on enough time to the wrong people). Clever hired hands.

##My opinion, ya
It’s perhaps obvious to say I have a bit feeling towards people doing what they 100% know doesn’t do them more good and does others harm but still choose to stay alive seemingly through the same ways knowing there won’t be any change or initiating any themselves. Perhaps I should talk my own experiences, of which I was definitely chicken to speak up more than I did.

##Perpetuation
Perpetuation of such unwanted things - every day - undermined by this decision and overall thought to just stay alive - perhaps a terrible reason for staying in a job (or even alive).

Less blame, maybe some shame
Hooking processes such as a job to our lives, making it hard to express an existence neutrally / without the job has a huge impact on friends and family. A modern twist of “Money or your life + you families life etc”. Eh it’s not that bad perhaps you can always for back on the doll.

Selling / Renting the Earth - Prostitution / Prostitutes.
I feel like the Earth is being sold on / rented and that I’m expected to rent myself too. Urggh, I feel ill.
Even with a condom on and any other protective gear given to me, I still feel like I’m being shafted.
:lipstick::boot::pill::dislike:

###Automation taking over…
Automation is already here and catching up with whatever it can we have a bright idea to make more ‘efficient’… setting systems that are hard to get out of and socially pressuring frameworks… name… number… Play with others or risk it alone and see how long you last. Or maybe many haven’t experienced enough of that yet or never decided to go it alone. You or I could also develop something that goes in the hands of those with other intentions. Do nothing and die out… ok a bit bleak…

##BOMB IT TO PIECES
What’s the first thing that has lots of investment and biggest interest for countries.
Military or similar… that’s where the big boys play and really step things up in all areas
It’s basically always going to be :runner:vs.:boom::bike: vs. :police_car:

Bascially, a few Fists of Fury and Anger
vs. The Calm Steel of a Gigantic Group with Guns

A big industry. Oh well. Another game over if you try and negotiate with it directly - yes they will come for you too! Great hunters… just a sniff and they can snipe, snare, snip, snarl, snag, snap, snarf, snatch, sneer, snick, snooker, snook, snoop, snitch, snow-blow, snub, snuff-out… you get the picture.

##Human Redundancy, Tech Redundancy, Obsolete processes.
‘Jobs’ and out-dating processes are definitely known somewhat - if we know and can make films then others know - I think it’s ignored, some catching up. I think we’ll all wait to get laid off before we do something big or be ready… I think I’m self-retired though I still have a few years left…

Automation has already got us somewhat.

##Computers. Enjoy your machine as it’s developers enjoy you :slight_smile:
Business ethics + technology. A new type of Chess (developed by them… business groups)

I’m sure some planned. Take the data / profits, move on. Standard programming behaviour

##Leaders / supervisors / workers are the control points for more division-type processes / programming.
it’s connected with how our societal and economic systems work. Also, it’s hard envisioning a realistic alternative in which things turned out to be anything close to really better on a fundamental level, without accepting first to accept simplicity for the children and then if opinions of what’s better. Staying alive in my view with limited option isn’t great.

##Jobs / activities
A ‘job’ sounds good as long as we’re not just fiddling (speaking on behalf of myself) and those processes / automations we not just get scooped up in the hands of those in touch with the masses first with the control to command.



#new

##Digital Disclaimer! A lot starts good but rambles and consumes more then you’re ever likely to get back or enjoy…
:broken_heart: I think the cost is something more than we might ever know or expect… this is half the problem if not more, we simply don’t know… and / or don’t want to spend the time calculating or making the checkpoints as that might kill the fun and reveal the truth too much…
To have the actual cost factors & numbers… would be a huge start to align everything else we base on money and really do the math…

##Digital Abundance
Digitally it seems abundant but only perhaps because it’s upheld by a huge infrastructure (The stock of basic facilities and capital equipment needed for the functioning of a country or area).

Prior to anything existing or digital content available or copied, the many investment companies had to pump lots of money and find a way to get paid back also (I could be wrong about this and people are like Tesla merely creating without looking for payback)
Every second (tick tock) we are paying in many ways (ISPs, hardware, precious metals, factories blah, blah) and paying off something made in ways we can consider COSTLY… very!

So we might think it not a lot of cost now (and definitely as humans we can decide anything can become cheap instantly) but it is quite a lot and we’ve missed it due to distributed costs (or what’s that word of making things cheap in chain?)

It’s costing all of us in a distributed way which = £/$millions per second…just going round being spent? Perhaps someone can get it cheap but it’s not going to be at the end of the pipe, more like at the very beginning of the pyramid. Splitting things to get more focus paybacks.

###Challenge / test
A nice flowchart or diagram is welcome to show me the moves how we become on top of things.

##The solution: If only…

  • we could decide why we’re doing all this and if the cost makes sense to stay on-line and convince those that have more power to give it up and risk us having the possibility of it instead!.. of course we’ll involve them in the process and say NO!
  • And if only everything wasn’t made for profit (undoing some of the good) because with that built-in we definitely will or are finding it hard/impossible to un-do that first foundation when when building on top of it trying to fix / do things that it simply can’t. The foundations are compromised as far as I see it, and just in physical break at some level of change either direction.

List of all components / stuff / shit - abundance of another kind!

  • heaps of machines, power units, cables, the redundancy, the heat, plastics, back ache, out-of-date-style-of-‘new’ (ok just look around your office or where ever you are - I’m going to save writing the whole parts list for computers, printers, networks or whatever)… so there’s lots…
    ###important questions
  • how did all this get made…?
  • how many factories?
  • distribution lines? ships, trucks and trailer haulage,
  • Buildings, land, patents, Antennas, wires dug in the road, crossing
  • power lines and cables above, power packs, (ok you get the point). Most of this ‘stuff’ is made abroad / off-shore / out-sourced so it’s not consuming / ruining anything I can see here perhaps.

People (or individuals somewhere else) are mining all this stuff, working in factories and I’m sure those things aren’t all great for them. Just plastic factories, PCB robots, metal presses etc… Hope they have the more expensive type of masks… nuclear power plants… it’s like a Command and Conquer game - how else are you going to grow your people / army? No grow is perhaps better to see where we are.

##DIGITAL consumes ENERGY (also DOESN’T COMPOST WELL) !
Ultimately all this digital stuff burns energy and unless we’re using it for good, for example making everything free all the time, then we’re still hooked on money for it’s supply and critically we’re still connected to most business groups who have to make all this ‘stuff’.
They (or groups of us well paid) are almost always better than us for making things worse / taking more than giving… Also when you throw it away it damages the earth or litters it (or Africa or wherever it’s dumped labelled as donation / charity goods)… all this might be far reaching but simple values seem lost if you consider your hard disk failing and loosing all those hours or throwing away of such abundant things for them simply never to compost well like nature (which grows more nature)… but take up a lot of space before, during after usage to what effectiveness? answer on a postcard. Plastics don’t compost, shame that… And now it’s in the sea, I don’t blame the companies for pumping it there, what else to do?… (this link is a small review / media link to it, really good)

This post is a bit more say and spray so forgive that and see the main points of each bit. The above link I wouldn’t mention if I didn’t feel bird and sea life eating our plastics (shredded and un-shredded plastics) is a really good example of more things to come - really good example of the really bad. Bd bad bAd bad. :slightly_smiling:

##Imagine we’re already there
I think digitally we have all we want / legally or not . but we don’t know what to do with it… yeah definitely takes time all this to figure it out, but ultimately I think we have to accept the equation that someone else made all this and it’s their system, not ours, and it needs us to keep using it. Can’t beat it, and so big wins for them even in us trying in this way on a ‘computer’. “Yeah buy more and use it against them!” - Ziggy my computer tells me I’m losing at a rate unsustainable each day… but the expression feels good at least.

##Can we measure it? Isn’t that one of the biggest problems if not?
anyone want to try and make a basic sketch of how using even 1 computer to do all this helps or uses energy?
I like flowcharts or something clear like a diagram that demonstrates things, a basic form of simulation logic… so if I could choose something nice like that even in a general sense (because you can always look at it in more detail later or make a mini-flow chart from any general blocks)…
flow chart software… that’s an idea… my laptop takes X amount per hour + cost this much and lasted 10years… I’ve used it xxxxxx hours and achieved Y… quite hard yes. I know time has been consumed and that’s a bunch of energy and I’m not pessimistic at all about the time I used… perhaps a bit more ‘wary’ let’s say now… coming into the early hours of the morning…

##Conversions
Converting things into digital (needs trees probably in the first place) means we can then have something in digital which I guess we’d eventually want to convert back efficiently in to real life again which might fail to keep our bodies alive… the laptop power pack isn’t going to keep us warm enough or fed and we better sort out all the duplicate copies stored everywhere too!

##We like soduku / eye-candy
All this digital abundance, seems a bit like soduku eye-candy - a constant moving of the same puzzle pieces, no disrespect. I know also we don’t have another way so much… and this has a few benefits in trying at least (keeping sane is also another benefit perhaps) but who produces these medium, metals, cables and what cost to the whole infrastructure (or other countries we ship the containers to) I think all is clearly a massive and increasing cost (and a mess frankly) BUT most importantly it’s not in our hands. We just gotta stop buying the crap!

Do we have much choice but to minimise that and plan our exit / way out? Should we constantly sleep with the same people we don’t like and then think we can avoid sleeping with them? Is this title like an old batman quote by the narrator at the end? Tune in next time for ‘save the world’ part 55500303 (I wrote this like some kind of title to encourage a bit of “…to be continued” type of thing.)

##we can’t make - oh wait maybe raspberry Pi we can…

ok sorry this part goes back to what we can’t :slightly_smiling:

  • the hardware and software changes - business has big control on (we can’t make the hardware on such scales and the changes make us always catch up and we can’t afford the constant time lost perhaps). Can we make a raspberry Pi from picking raspberries or mining some metal from, err that place around the corner ?
  • the legislation, distribution or law to ‘know your customer’ and similar things, things that connect more to other things might just turn around and be used by businesses (as always?)
  • fairness… we can’t make fairness using unfair things… can’t we?

Overall we’re all competing by using money, it put us there and also we can’t leave each other alone considering money only comes from 1 or 2 sources and total debt = > total available - what a position for the little one’s to start not knowing about until there are double digits beings only to go to university and party for a bit and realise… oh shit…

##Summary
Things that are just as bad as good ultimately don’t escape the top level of ‘bad’…

We might just have to leave what is tempting alone for these reasons - did you mum & dad ever tell you you played too much on your computers ? Well that might be continuing even as we speak… Fun isn’t it… I’d like to hear some thoughts on how all our plugged in plugs, costly electricity (sorry Tesla) and heavy hardware (or even light precious metals and toxic plastics) are going to win it for us.

No such thing as digital zero marginal cost economy… what do you think?

I’m writing a little quickly as my eyes are almost burning! Yes not joking, yet another limitation of the digital abundance, retinal limits… perhaps less is more for this poor organ being over-worked more than ever on a regular and daily basis at work and then at home… [insert ‘poor eye’ pic here]

For me most of this sounds like trying well in some way but still ends up being the answer of getting away from consumptive systems, eventually connected to monetary systems and without completely agreeing to work together it’s more energy that not really organised and just one side trying to convince the other whilst one needs them more and shafting them better.
We might have to use what got and call it a day if it doesn’t work… processors and other parts are all up to a great speed - what we gonna do with it! Not sure we’re ready for more production of it, more stepping (2Ghz, 2.2ghz, 2.45Ghz… 3Ghz… oh look 3.3Ghz… 3.8Ghz… ok now RAM 25mhz… 50mhz… oh look it’s 100mhz, 400 DDR DADA, 500 DAD…) all this stuff and the evolution of it by business first and then us… or them simply them being us (but changing our individual badges to one’s hired by them) so shooting ourselve in the foot!. What company do you work for…? Is it doing more good or bad? :slightly_smiling:
How many programmers, how many designers… all under the banner of business and doing things that way… How am I or we going to compete with that? In a sentence please other than believe it’s possible more than kamakaze or something…

I think that’s already very possible and scalable, even in an infantile way. Pay a few people and they’ll train it up nicely so it still needs a little help… but does more damaged, I mean extracts more… sorry I mean does more good business.

One can be less easier to cheat than the other, but things are still hard to cheat or they just become deliberately allowable backdoors (part of business ‘family’s’ or ‘groups’).
Reminded me about one of your comments about duplicate posts or split posts that can help increase stats (and maybe reputation) in some way and that discourse not affected by that - pretty amazing software.

###Numbers
People love numbers and maybe getting away from that helps in some way allow other things come into focus, if not being more at rest with one’s self with the knowing that complex numbers or computers never truly represent us the people individually. And unless it’s instant and want to tag everyone then people and their minds changing are going to skew things.

Trust

Maybe a type of trust, not to mess with some things and also make the right decision off-line too from solid principles will keep us on a good course for everyone. I trust on-line = mostly entertainment for the masses


#new2
Hello,

I do write differently to the average bear (or more accurately to some of those who have replied to me in the forum who complained somewhat :slight_smile: ). So my about page may show I’m sincere if it’s not assumed already and just am this way).

##Title concerns
This topic title is also used as a preliminary. It also serves to demonstrate a hazard in topic making since the words ‘ethical’ and not ‘ethical’ can be opinions or relating to a different sub-set of things including principles of preferences in different sorts of priorities which have their own ordering (further sub-set combinations). This is A REAL CAN OF WORMS :fried_shrimp:… which may excite the mind but perhaps after initial impulse needs adjusting for further objectives… so I’m considering other words, and welcome replacements for now with the above said things in mind…

##Reducing general comments / focussing somewhat… Something less opinionated / more practical…
Please PM any temptations of a reply to maintain clarity and minimal chat (I’m not too interested to be honest) - also avoids fragmented discussion on this page.

I think I can achieve this with two further headers, the feeling and the practicalities / facts:

###My general feeling towards clarity:

  • Ethical / unethical in my own view is when something is or is not done without my approval. I find that’s enough to cross boundaries… and can be anything!.. even to the level of building the very technological infrastructure I use without asking me if the forest should be cut for another power station… is something I’d say flat NO to even if it meant half the week without computer… Try me! Forest being carved up so I can jerk off hmmm…
  • I realise unavoidable things like people being born before me or having good reasons can make the above point seeming like I’m some God-like person people need to ask everything first, but I’d still prefer more asking then what it is now… I can see how many thing it would ‘help us’ get ahead in some sense to use technology (hard to group it all), but for actual benefits, we could have waited a while and got the knowledge anyway some other way without burning /building our environment into what it is. Or perhaps not. This paragraph acknowledges all those before me and hope we can get ahead and win this somewhat unclear game we’re in. No-one likes when something fun got too fast for them and can’t quite playing (tread-mill).

So towards a title analysis here is my breakdown for you to chew on further.

###My opinions of facts / practicalities towards clarity:
###Technology (I advise skipping the 2nd level of bullet indents on first read)

  • is too easy to use and too easy incorrectly used / messes other things
  • a user is also potential abuser of varying scope of responsibility (not all fall on one person or place).
    • training isn’t really given on how to use the net so not surprised generations completely missed technology traps like slow-release / stepping of hardware and versions… (perhaps even you reading right now are amongst all this doing it every day seeking for a way out constant reinstalling OS’s / apps, tweaking, constant tech changing, playing… overall (if I could talk on my behalf and some others) what we might deep down want to escape being, merely a slave to the machine somewhat unless a revolution suddenly happens without them…
    • Terms and conditions not explained to people in real life. Not enough care to prove terms have been read. Allowing self-exploitation and arguably at other people’s cost in the system. Other people’s tracked data eventually gets back to me for example. Grrr. :slightly_smiling:
  • Technology is another barrier or filter or can be even more of one between all of us
  • (lack of emotions etc list here)
  • other forms of misunderstanding …which admittedly can also happen in real life
  • Technology is inhuman (or much less human)…
    • so never going to up our skill in real life to the same level or same way.
  • is not transparent
  • relies on a huge business infrastructure (most of which we are fighting against on many levels
  • so how will that ever win that, raspberry pi soldiering our own parts & boards? :slight_smile:
  • huge power consumption, device manufacture plants, multiple duplicate product outputs / planned obsolescence is the least of the problems

##Useful Links(?) Section

##Overall
IF a level of inhuman management proportions is found using technology (considering too that’s just one extension of life) then maybe it’s foreseeable that only the human factors come in to play thereafter that’s sorted or regressed back to the level of basic / simply minimal technology which I’m not suggesting would be better, but only would allow us to focus on the human things and not try going off on this tangent only to face the above facts, some of which I see as immovable.

##A short test question:
Q. I’m a slave to my machine, are you?
A. _ <------------ (blinking cursor / caret) :computer:


Educational Links to bash technology
General Shoutbox
(Patrick T Anderson) #2

Hi Spirit,

I understand what you mean.

I wonder how automation became our enemy.

An automatic dish-washer seems to be good for a household.

Why is automation our ally when applied on a small scale such as a household?

Could we ever retain that good relationship while sharing to achieve economy-of-scale?

Sincerely,
Patrick


(Professor J. Moriarty) #3


#4

I think the processes and the real cost are more what we overlooked. We couldn’t even calculate (or lost count and vision with the effects of each change) and so getting the best out of all the various parts became less and less humanly calculable or perceivable in the future. All of this comes to the point of negative usage of matter and energy and interferes / interrupts other parts of life with further effect which is also less measurable, though some of us may value these things more than others. It’s maybe only when you visit the city dump (or the one further out of town) that you really can understand/imagine some of these things. Even dumping it allows people use the energy and confirm the way they can profit from producing it in the first place and reap the residual which is quite a big reap (a double-benefit… triple, quad etc… multiple benefits and strategic positioning, making things illegal when it’s not us choosing).

  • How much energy does it cost to take the dish-washer away (end of life) (Kilowatts? Joules?)

  • Hint: Man hours? + Vehicle consumption of it taking the unit away.
    All this could give an idea of the numbers and total consumptions

  • How much life did the dish-washer operate? (hours could be counted on unit / logged centrally)

  • What is the percentage of metal in this dishwasher? (%mass)

  • How far did the metal come from? (km)

Once you start counting from the beginning or have counters / timers you can have some estimates. Pretty easy to imagine and I’m quite sure almost all business knows already as it’s all big money and profit (even adjusting something small on a mass scale).

The end of life and attachments to bigger machines and the processes overall may not make a dishwasher actually be good overall OR maybe it’s good but human washers hold different values (such as not using plastics / metals etc + learning curves like learning to clean up themselves). Often I feel business (and our lack of really knowing the process) makes it convenient to appear that way and additionally we start to lean on far too many ‘handy’ things like that and end up with different kinds of waste / unknowns.

I’m not sure it is our ally, unless the automation process is really solid and less breakable, otherwise lots of value can quickly escape or be spent when someone comes a long and breaks it because it needs specific care or simply wears out. Such a good machine… Crack… no longer works… pay someone or buy another.

Not sure it is a good relationship in the first place unless the dishwasher is built like a tank to last (and I don’t mean only having a A+ sticker on it!).
Machines that are more:

  • measurable (creation and life-cycle)
  • visibly working (not showing nice things at the front and polluting at the back or behind it / at the pipes)
  • super easy to repair / remake parts
  • regenerates naturally (humans probably best at this!)

So basically unless it’s a human cleaning after its own mess then anything else will be in-efficient and problem-encouraging in all the other areas of life! Can we or should we avoid doing the washing ourselves?
Practically speaking, our hands are some of the best tools out there and eventually in dish-washing, something worth managing more ourselves.

Keep it natural / cleaning less / over-cleaning
More naturally in the context of work… there’s a good argument and logic in cleaning things less too and that kind of way of working… We might ‘want’ more of a ‘mental’ level of clean to sooth our perceptions rather than actually need it. I mean things like using existing using plates / cups… why not? Re-using or rinsing immediately might help but even then often there’s not much need.
Over doing it might be in the form of putting back when there’s a high chance someone will come and use again. So if it’s not in the way, Leave to dry (saves time) and leave it out (saves time)?

##lots of work equation
I’ve often, lots of work = the combination of [leaving things ‘later’] + [people using too many things at the same time].

And so too are the problems in life perhaps. People are quick, demand a lot (restaurants) and this is why machines might save us. Less dishes and less electronic work then the less need for the machine.

At the same time, frankly, what else is there to do? Might as well buy a machine / a new toy.


(Michael Hrenka) #5

I am very much in favour of automation when it enables us to minimize boring activities and do more interesting, difficult, and meaningful things instead. Unfortunately, the temptation to use the time we get through automation to do lazy and stupid things like watching silly TV shows is possibly exacerbated with increasing automation. So, automation does challenge us on a psychological level: Can we use automation to move to a higher level, instead of becoming decadent? Note that without automation we wouldn’t even have that choice: We would be stuck with mostly uninteresting and unproductive busywork.

Overall, I embrace the challenges that are created by automation. Those challenges should motivate us to move forward, rather than getting stuck in a rut. We can decide whether we act as robots, passive consumers, or active creators of the world around us. It’s technology and automation which provides us with these options. If we make the wrong decisions it’s not the fault of technology, but of our faulty human reactions to the riches that technologies gives us. Power corrupts. And technology can make us powerful indeed. That’s why need to be careful not to be corrupted by the blessings of technology, but use them to better ourselves, and the world around us. In fact, that’s a very tough challenge and many humans seem to be failing. Still, I am hopeful that we will eventually learn to use our technological powers to do more good than bad.


#6

I think almost of it is silly, not just TV. Perhaps to add to silly would be a word to represent what is not ours, something made to delay real autonomy etc… we think we get so much but it’s all another delay, another language, more life on top… but still the same problems and issues remain.

##“Boring” ? ! :smile:
‘Boring’ to you is probably maybe something you haven’t quite ‘balanced’ yet…right? :wink:
Of course I can guess a little what you mean and talking about boring and not boring from different perspectives is going to a tough position… but generally the perspective that anything is boring is perhaps huge potential and let’s say a work in progress for any potential wielder of this word !

##My interpretation of … (a little off topic, can skip this header)
Looking at the word ‘boring’ and when it’s used most often…
(or maybe when I used to use it at least last (years ago I think)
Always used when I or someone hadn’t found how to appreciate something, didn’t find the answer instantly, or didn’t even know how to find the answer to doing the same thing again… seeing things as the same when it’s a new instance.

“How can I get busy with this?” is perhaps a better question… and “how can I practising enjoyment” and finding out “why doesn’t this seem like a nice task for me?”

Perceptions, are usually responsible, such as

  • lack of time
  • face-value interest
  • unexpected expectations
  • unplanned timings / bad timing etc…
  • short-concentration span - need flashing pictures or lights for eyes
  • lack of technique / practice and the slow speed with it

All these are more of the reason which otherwise render something as seemingly bored… rather than the perspective of ‘actually it’s ok’ / it’s ‘fun’ / ‘easy’ etc… once you know how to look at it…
I mention this as it sounded a little like “if something is boring then we shouldn’t do it!”

I would ask if you’ve tried first the boring activity first in any the other ways before omitting it from it’s worth to you.

##Perhaps you/we are already lazy?
There’s a chance that you have already got ‘lazy’ and ‘stupid’ as you say but it crept up on you like you never imagined… like with TV but merely the sister model called ‘desktop A/V computer’ which started out as an education or programming things but the similar screen and bigger keypad just took over in some other way. My slightly tongue-in-cheek attempt to see if this rings home this way I hope doesn’t offend and I could do with talking about myself more than anything here, which I am and would like to ask if you too feel like over time things changed and you might have only just realised it’s actual effectiveness / results?
Seeing this increasingly uncanny comparison to the TV unit is for me a type of being tricked somewhat OR getting away from one thing that seemed to have health / educational perks… but turned out to be a similar template to what other people were pushing, except with web beacons and other such advanced devices to boot.

##Responsibility
We are responsible, and NOT alone in that, but share as a society, school, parent, business, government (anything pushing or preaching what it doesn’t actually know about the automation around it) more than just the interest in the buying itself into it. All is a mess and confusing us further if not interested, educated, aware, etc.

##Habits
Yeah we get hooked into lots of habits, and don’t we occasionally know it well! We have great documentaries to tell us to in perfect narration. Maybe CONSCIOUSLY stopping ourselves with all this options is a good thing. Give up the console. Instead of changing the colour we want our website again and again or to adding / upgrading more of the same plugins (only for it to be out-of-date and need upgrading later), we could have less. Isn’t it enough and just something we’re chasing indefinitely anyway? Mostly virtual? Maybe that’s what we want as human, something to chase (or a kind of sitting and looking at the fire), fair enough, but at some point it’s enough and we need to get up and actually do something constructive. Not just constructing ONLY because we’re good at it and to make money.

##Exit the game / find your own flow
Definitely it’s a hard challenge slowing down / simplifying things - doesn’t seem like a great game exiting when all you’re mates are exposing themselves and you need to remain ‘joined’ in order to participate or even message them! Ridiculous. If you count how many games / systems you are in you might reconsider how many (similar to how many subscriptions or feeds you have - is it humanly possibly?)…

###The other way - Human matching of flows and methods
So not just machine processes but our own. Matching flows and activities personally more than anything else. Put a machine there and lots of the learning processes is missed, over-looked, avoided, skipped… and interrupts natural lines of flow that only those at the time can sense. Machine can’t or shouldn’t monitor that kind of info, another human should whilst naturally going about an activity. I think with machines it isn’t good overall - ever snapped at someone after using a machine too long?
We go too quickly beyond the people’s capabilities around. I think I have a problem with:

  • The jump or heavy usage when submerging (computer work mainly)…
  • The non-human tempo
  • The non-human responsibility (ignores those present in many ways?)

All doesn’t feel right or work well to respect us all, all of the time.

##Better vs. Satisfied
Especially for those people learning (mostly new in life) or those wanting new skills, entry-level ‘basic’ work is needed… it’s about keeping lots of the right small levels of things to do, and some of the hard to account for each individual almost uniquely…
Pushing people to higher levels of complication without choice in the name of ‘better’ or ‘progress’ seems a danger for me and I’m not sure better exists or practically can more than in the word ‘satisfied’.

##Should?

“Should” is a perhaps an ideal that wanted, and perhaps this is what we are stuck in, continual wanting. And really beyond some limited applications and examples, technology is a tease or a highly inefficient exchange…

Human control with their own skill and level up in awareness is the ultimate level / objective perhaps - arguably critical for the continuation of it’s own kind or Earth’s maintenance. Anything else is subject to premeditated high-jacking, design and business flaws (planned obsolescence) and stronger alternative motives or demands NEEDING to be met BEFORE justice or any other human feeling is checked.

##Human activity and caring
I think the existence of meaningful care, at every level of activity, is one of the most important things to us, to the human colony. Regardless of opinions of it being ‘boring’ etc without highlighting 'boring too much… it’s all about what’s important to ourselves as individuals right? Agree?
There are also many levels of acceptance, tolerance, training etc for many things, so that boring task as you might think may have something healthy in many ways, if not for you then for sure for others. The fact it has not been automatised (replaced by a machine) is already rewarding on many levels which can be seen as medium or long term and a few short. Regrdless or this or discounting it all I’m in favour of not fucking it up more than we have… Realising we can’t expect others to make machines for us and keep count seems such a obvious fact. The true cost is something we could also save too, almost a double win!.. accept less frequent standards = less need / expectation.

##Only work when wanted
I though about voting and all that… many not voting I think is a vote in itself (vote of non-confidence / non-belief) but it would appeal more perhaps if you were not just a number and subject but really allowed to comment on your own file so others eventually could serve and see what you wanted… and simply implement it.

##Job Market - Film: [Humans Need Not Apply] (http://freeschool.0id.org/humans-need-not-apply/)
How to avoid machines doing the job for you and then needing to serve the machines?!

That’s a kind of automation I think doesn’t work. A check-mate / dead end / degrading slope we too have a good process after making these processes!

15mins = :hourglass_flowing_sand: [Humans Need Not Apply] (http://freeschool.0id.org/humans-need-not-apply/) :hourglass: - it may be good on a lot of fronts.

##Assumption check
It may be you thought that we need to ‘solve’ things rather than we let everything kinda get get on with itself. I’m not sure exactly what I mean but I know there is a difference between having an agenda and not… and some times I’m seeing everything too calculated and therefore less organic or more synthetic in it’s results.

##Live with yourselves first and then machines
Perhaps in my idea people will live with themselves much more before trying to apply it to others with things like machines / automation chain and techniques. Difficult to unlearn once technology is introduced and spread always faster / sooner that understood and developed.

##The right method isn’t always with technology
Once people are sorted with the right method for themselves, the right music, the right angle, the right flow, the right teacher not a lot more is needed or will stop two or more humans doing their thing… that can be very efficient.
To tie it back what I think, I think that looking to develop a more perfect replacement to us effectively means running the danger of devaluing our own skills and potential and deleting the job which someone actually wants to do it).

Life is naturally hard - and without breaking life it’s not possible?
Perhaps people should do almost everything themselves in order to continue life personally and be responsible for it - so not out-sourcing it / remote controlling it too much… all to act as an inherent self-check… a double-check… limit the possibilities of over-inflated / artificial populate the Earth (people will die as we don’t have enough food) … and then we can think about growing healthy clued up people without resorting to certain more intensive / short-term growing and technology techniques…blah
Summary: The education and awareness or the time implementing it is what I see as the people falling behind with currently whilst having their time being robbed too from their employers and they also don’t care or see the point of more time… Yeah maybe if people eat less, or spend less then they can and will focus but not sure right now.

##No Care Share Bear?
Overall, someone caring at a post (a care bear or similar :dog::penguin: :koala:) can stand there for it and it’s choices… without them caring is perhaps reducing over time and life not dedicated… I’m quite sure there’s is less meaning to anything automated unless it was really both that way… maybe email (just a quick un-deep thought)… everything else else we might achieve something faster but also maybe what we didn’t want like fire and shelter that could be left alone? (again another bad example maybe but things that don’t need excessive technology)… It’s tough to know what more than just basics can actually be improved… this paragraph was a pain.

##other way of saying the above
Overall, if there is no caring at a post (a care bear or similar :dog::penguin: :koala:) then it’s almost always reducing the care over time or I’m not sure there’s much meaning to those things being automated… I sense I could have a different version of 'automation;… (just thought I’d say that before I forget)… so although a process may ‘do’ lots, it’s eventually loosing its meaning or care because it’s away from humans AND valued by humans - thus also bound for further problems later especially:

  • system in systems
  • running things remotely / less or no locally managed
    that almost always need maintenance … if it’s only going to end up with perfect processes (not so much for many types of humans other than near-bots / geeks / other similar well-educated stereo-types).

##Meaning
What’s gives more meaning than us? Can something be given more meaning with a machine attached in the chain?

and what are they !? :slight_smile:

I’m not sure I want to change your mind though, it seems set. Looking for constantly ‘higher levels’ (if I caught it right) is borderline a disease in thinking or more accurately missing lots of the other points we’re still far behind with or perhaps need to start in ‘upgrading’ those first (psychology I would include as one of them without pushing tech further)

For me it’s obvious not to go down the technology track too far… like you said the temptation and lights are simply too much and distracting - I’m not sure without proper coaching in our unique traits and sectors, they we can achieve.

‘Boring activities’ a problem in our head as nothing is boring when you know how to make it fun… why you’re doing it… save the Earth… stop giving control to corporate processes who do the work for you lazy / boring bones at your own cost… (waste of boring energy / money?)… teaches us there is a cost / reason to avoid doing things we often don’t need…

basically this kind of tap running “always-on” is a huge (over) consumption of energy / almost unjustified really… even for good use.
It’s difficult to take a technology if it was created for a specific purpose with something in mind… by some other people…
I see the eternal flaw in any of our matrices as hardware being made by others, and we couldn’t do it on the same level more as individuals.

I was also listening to a pod-cast which said loosely that without some kind of limitation or boundary people end up naturally tinkering or configuring or upgrading etc more than implementing… I think limitations are healthy once you have a some kind of acceptable process or pipeline… think along the lines of dial-up or lesser broadband speed and having pages just not at break-neck speeds… or having heat and fuel available so why go fracking? We still have most of everything now and we’re also so behind in catching up with ‘it’… the must be a limit and relief to allow that to catch up…

…because most things I sense this will go past or against other people’s individual likes and dislikes to be a problem.


(Patrick T Anderson) #7

Hi @Spirit, I would like to understand your point-of-view.

Would you say all labor-saving devices are problematic?

For example, what about something as simple as a shovel?

Would it be better if we had no tools at all - of any kind.

I am being sincere and hope we can find where the balance is.

Thank you.


#8

Short answer is yes. Anything that starts mixing basic and complicated elements, techniques across lots of disciplines means they are all connected in many way at the beginning, maybe the middle and at some point the end… all deemed beyond human control and focus until some other major factors are STOPPED or sorted in their design, technique, business, money, shipping, distribution, oil consumption / extraction … which could all be the Earth effects even before considering it’s also part of the human effect… some things we need to stop and choose and continually educate ourselves with… extracting and importing all this ‘stuff’… even to keep life alive, is losing more life.

Small metals, delicates, plastics, PCB parts, capacitors, ores, themo-heat treated, chemicals, whatchamacalits, glues, embedded fusion of this that and the other… lots of things…
anything that needs externalising / importing / relies on the small things that we don’t see or don’t agree with… , wires… knowledge about tech use… learning their pro’s and cons… fault points too… maybe letting the right models slip through and keep them as staples to earn the respect back or how many types of routers and shit we have, squeeze the best out of us and what little is produced… too much choice / internet is a killer…

I find without the calculations and real cost and spreading all these components and organisations wherever they come from … across so many sectors -that… all is definitely the cause of troubles and not forgetting take from the Earth (extraction) etc… ah it’s it’s too much even to write… but hoe you get the picture.

ps. I don’t think the ‘no tools of any kind’ is necessary, just the solid elements perhaps can stay (blacksmith / iron mongetr stuff) and perhaps stop production of the ditch the electronic virtual shit that’s like the picture of the phone we serve instead of back in the day we could send some urgent text messages… power consumption… through the roof!
and we’ll see what’s respected after that maybe… cracking population, decision making, eating together are all extra distractions on similar magnitude which I’m not really up for going into to (sorry to mention it and tease, perhaps power consumption is best example but not sure where to go with it, seems you believe / see it consumes more and accept it or continue to charge it every day…).

~ _
~ / . . . . Justification of a …
~ || . . … . Shovel
~ || ~ vs. :electric_plug: + Appliance
_ ||_ ~ _
|___| _ ~ seems like a much simpler choice

The cost to life and price to pay for the existence of a shovels seems much more controllable and less dangerous than

  • the plug and it’s related electrical standard / governing of it’on’ status
  • the cost involved for permanent global power grid
  • the cost of whatever appliance industry & deisgn models are attached to the other end of the plug… (opens a whole new list of further costs, variations, mutations)

More happy with this reply now… I’ve still had a enough of all of it… perhaps this writing really now helps to really say it… but dissatisfaction ultimately still reigns that we can’t change things as quick as we brought them about… or at least some of us aren’t allows and we all get dragged in or grouped into the same league… bit too much to ask the new generation to accept that I feel without avenues and possibilities to live without…


(Michael Hrenka) #9

I’m not sure what you want. Do you want a technology-minimal life for yourself only, or with some small group, or do you want everyone to transition to a “simpler” lifestyle?


#10

Not claiming I know what to call it or if it’s what I want other than a healthy / value-keeping inclusion of sub-components which stick to basic requirements, listed and laid out above mostly, and may be further simplified into some kind of simplified tick list to really agree as a foundation for what we are fighting / striving for. An simplified version could be:

yes to super-simple
yes to things that keep it’s value in whole (less dispersed / split / fragmented / lost)
yes to super-transparent and directly calculable…
yes to reflecting those in the present, standing in the here and the now
yes to a constant of choice for those future (even if it’s ‘boring’ or a fucking pain in the neck now)
yes to the valuing (highly) and the consideration of any kind of avoidance, ignorance, abuse, lack-of-respecting-choices-of-the-people-now
yes to sorting problems out at the beginning and not after implementing and depending on many levels of infra-structure and additional layers of tech - quite inhuman to most that would need it.
yes to being able to de-construct anything we put in place (not needing to ram things home just for the sake of some kind of result or finsih)

And some nots simplified:
Not forcing people into using technology or ‘voting’ for it as a direct and deliberate of lack of alternatives or from shutting down of any of the other possibilities
no ‘only one way’ ‘best’ practice (and not just showing technologies good points and never it’s bad / actual costs across the board).
No to arms and killing machines, or those with high accident and damaging impacts… understanding what the point of all this speed is if it’s only to crash more often / more mistakes / faster bad decisions / take up treadmills / inherently ignoring humans values or current opinion about the current or future use of it.


(Professor J. Moriarty) #12


#13

Kinda interesting, maybe say, if you like, what this picture means for you and relativity here.


(Professor J. Moriarty) #14

heh. Dunno. I just imagined you using super high tech VR to live as a caveman. Thought it was funny. Reminds me of the ‘get back to nature’ hippie people in Blue Mars. Me, I love tech, but I also love nature and being an animal. I choose which mode to be in. I don’t let the tech force me to be always connected or become always forced non/sub human.


#15

Perhaps in general it’s towards low tech for me. I’m not running big rigs.

##TV standards
TV can be seen as less ‘advanced’ compared to modern TV technology and it’s usage. The previous generation (seen pictured) I think would definitely see it TV as ‘remaining quite the same’ whilst other technology has advanced or at least changed forms / formats.
The current family integration with technology means is it’s still so advanced in terms of basics of original Television viewing and even any present automation of it, such as storage, bookmarking / reminders, scheduling - all of which are quite still underused / uneeded compared to the more instant type of channel-switching consumption (a game in itself) or usage as a disposable style of time consumption when no better system of building something other than time-killing exists.

Summary:
Computers in the bedroom or mobile phones elsewhere are still more advanced than the fixed-to-the-wall big-screen-TV’s which we may agree still dominates the living room…

##‘Inspirational’ Pictures
Pictures sometimes have some truth but finding that specific component part is really important, and often not as clear as saying it… well not to me sometimes unless I really mix around the combination of what words I think the picture is saying and what it represents.

For self-reflection, transferring knowledge, understanding feelings and why we operate the way we do there may be assistants after inspiration which aids in reading and learning more.

##Crap sells
One day I might realise why people pay for all this other stuff and the truth hardly pays.
Perhaps it’s people can rely more on humans slipping or abusing themselves (knowingly or not) and capitalising on it, instead of giving them the honest tools and going broken from lack of repeat business (business self-extinction with a smile / true gift for the planet)

##FAQ of feelings
(pronounced FUCK OFF FEELINGS)

A few self-answered questions things I’m fairly certain of, which might lead to further enlightenment / answers to 'why? about some things…

  • Am I simple not happy, and therefore see minimal integration as a less-speedy fucking up of things? YES.
  • Do I believe if you play more games of chess with the automated mass-murdering hugely-ignorant processes of current life as a guarantee of losing years and self-integrities more quickly? YES
  • Do I feel this is a type of suicide / self-destructive for me? YES
  • If I play less the external game of chess will I be able to to see what is going on before more of it happens? PERHAPS, or at least it’s better to help in some way rather than contribute as a primary achievement before the day is over.
  • Are people and processes taking their knowledge and advance and selling it to automated purposes which are likely to evaluate things on a monetary basis mainly and then simply execute, cut down and consume things in the cheapest way?.. without blinking much of an eye or LED ? YES I believe that’s already happening. Just feed the machine data and out the results for quickest way pops out the other side.
  • Are the clever people showing the other cold chess players in the world moves to instant kill and instant check-mate other players for colder benefits and results related to the insatiable unrestrained destruction of the habit ? YES
    Is the whole meaning of life more than about winning / screwing people over / extracting from the game / planet ? NO

The last one I really mean YES.

I do feel this picture has some truth in part also as:

  • Both types of people might have opted out of parts of society or find comfort at home / making less moves / risks externally instead of venturing / fighting (less places to go / being priced out of going somewhere often / rules and regulation / police and army answering any strong ideas)
  • Both are non-live program watchers (TV or downloads) though one seems to be educating / researching / debating MUCH more than the other (not just talking about switching to NAtiona Geographic in between other mostly US programs)
  • One side seems to have more of a conciousness / clear understanding of business practice / sense of spirituality or some kind of driving force in life direction and hope
  • The other side seems to be happy how things are with the occasional moan and traditional style of working to get ‘the money’ wherever and however possible and maintaining a family existence as a kind of achievement without much overall existential direction or overall though what happens when companies really turn the screws… or if there’s more to life than externally buying food and then using the TV or similar as a ‘time-out’ afterwards, such as helping preserve the planet or keeping it fun in a less perverse way.
  • Not all parts of the VR ‘kid’ in the picture might be healthy and perhaps apply more exactly to the the now-grown-older kid as time has gone past. VR and games addiction are still present with that kids since the roots of cultivate it have continued to be adequately supplied (the dissatisfaction and lack of trusting kids to do what they like and mono-template of working in life)

I suggest a dissatisfaction button EVERYWHERE and this is my proto-type.

As the reasons to conform or help those controlling technology remain less-justified or more and more clear it’s not working, the only hopes children or those older may have is sticking to the right teachers / fun players and hope the freedom to roam (and ok that means VR thought and mind nowadays) can provide hope that the children can be ready to dominate into more other areas of life in real life (again in thought and mind, then naturally the body) to become real guardians of themselves and each other.


(Professor J. Moriarty) #16


#17

Hehe, I like it, can even see it’s application… but it’s all end user smiles… sponsored & installed by a big company too (did you know Simpsons has now be taken over as in bought strangely by a screen company?)