Next question: If it turns out that you’re wrong, what will you attribute the mistake to? I mean, what is it that causes you to be 98% sure? Where is YOUR evidence for me being delusional? Do you have any evidence?
That’s an interesting question. I guess I would attribute it to you deliberately holding back evidence that would speak in your favour. You don’t seem to feel the need to present everything that might display you in a better light, because you don’t deem that kind of self-presentation necessary.
Most people who say delusional stuff are delusional. When they don’t even bother to come with good evidence in their favour, it’s even more likely that they are delusional. Let’s say that at this stage the probability of you being delusional was about 80%.
Now, I can add to that what I know about you, which doesn’t speak in your favour. There’s not a single significant large success that I am aware about that I would attribute to your skills. Sure, that might be because you’re still relatively young, or had to deal with some adversities. Or that you are especially ambitious and go all in with your highest hopes and goals. Which I think is quite likely, and not too dissimilar from my own level of ambition. Anyway, the overall lack of empirical success still doesn’t inspire confidence in me. At this stage the probability of you being delusional lies at around 85%.
You also claim to be good at social stuff, when I see hardly any evidence speaking in favour of that hypothesis. Granted, you may have some interesting approaches and skills, but they are usually relatively blunt. Perhaps that’s your preferred strategy, but I don’t see that working out very well. Anyway, in my discussions with you, you seemed to display a significant lack of (social) comprehension that I usually would attribute to asperger’s syndrome. In your case, it might be the result of optimizing for straightforward rationality applied to social affairs, which discounts possibly valid elements of social common sense. In both cases, this lack of understanding makes you seem socially unskilled to me. That by itself wouldn’t be so bad, if you didn’t insist that you were actually excellent at social stuff. At this stage the probability of you being delusional is about 95%.
The reason why I’ve gone up to 98% is that you seem to be very reluctant to even consider the possibility that you suffer from certain weaknesses. You have effectively shielded yourself from possible crucial (and unpleasant) self-insights that would help you to grow further and fix your current limitations. That’s a very critical form of weakness, a kind of meta-weakness that severely limits your effective potential. Perhaps eventually you will be able to overcome that limit somehow, perhaps even with my feedback. But I haven’t seen any evidence for you being open to that kind of self-questioning.
Now, you might want to get very defensive about all the points I’ve mentioned here. I’d suggest to you for once not to follow that impulse to become defensive – see it as experiment. Assume that what I’ve written was absolutely true, and follow that to its logical conclusions. What would be the next logical step of action, in that case?
You said that you were worried that you might have to ban me at some point, and that it might be ugly. Don’t be. I’ll give you my word: If you ask me stop posting on F3, then i won’t. It won’t even be a ‘ban’, just you sayin’ that you think I’m doing more harm than good. Or indeed if you want to moderate me, and only allow posts that you’ve vetted, that’s fine too.
Firstly I’d want to understand exactly how I managed to make the mistake of not realising sooner. So i’d look at what I thought was my evidence more deeply. And look at the techniques I use to detect delusions early, and see how they failed.
The fact that I claim to have such checks in place should tell you a lot.
The fact that I accept that my being delusional is possible, and the fact that I was actually nervous while waiting for the evidence for your 98, should tell you a lot.
How many delusional people admit that it’s possible that they’re wrong and just delusional? Is that a common thing for delusional people to do? I’m guessing it isn’t.
Would you say I’ve been ‘defensive’ in this (or the next) replies? I’m not sure exactly what you mean by it.
Circular. But I think you mean " ‘most people who say-stuff-that-sounds-like-it-might-be-delusional’ are likely to be delusional". Well that’s true, but there is reason I sound delusional. So argument is just that delusional-sounding delusional people are statistically much more common than delusional-sounding people that aren’t delusional. So if you didn’t have any other evidence, you might go off this and say 90+ % likely that I’m delusional., granted.
It sounds like you’re taking this claim/possibility very seriously. If that’s the case then you should be assigning it a high (over 10%) probability. So already your 98 is looking suspect.
Unless they have a good reason for not supplying all the evidence.
Again, you’re taking my claim seriously.
You know perfectly well that there are some delusional people in the transhumanist community. Quite a lot of them. (talking about crazy distant futures attracts nutjobs). But you don’t take them seriously. And I think you’ll admit that they sound nothing like me, and I sound nothing like them.
My parents would agree with you. They also tell me that I’m delusional about all this stuff. And they’ve known me my whole life. But they behave much like you do: by saying that they think I’m delusional, but their actions suggest that they think there is a decent chance that I might be right.
I think you underestimate yourself. So it’s not surprising that you also underestimate us. We are the heavy crew. If you know of a better place and community than F3, please point me there, and I’ll be on my way. And if there is a better place, why did you bother creating f3? Sure, other groups have more ‘members’, but so what if they’re all light weights?
Some evidence for you: Why do so many top people invest their precious time in me? You, Spencer, Lodewijk, Kanzure, Alcuin, David.
jrayhawk: Unethical: Would depend on the system of ethics. Kanzure dumped a lot of unproductive-to-him time into you; you have significant negative social capital with him. Apparently it worked out for you in a solipsistic sort of ethics, at least.
jrayhawk: it’s possible kanzure noticed the truth-seeking and ostensible humility and instinctively had enough respect for you to continue talking; it’s actually somewhat unfathomable to me that he did.
jrayhawk: “I am not willing to spend time helping you comprehend me, but I will continue talking to you anyway” just seems bizarrely counterproductive.
jrayhawk: A troll moves conversations in directions ostensibly undesirable to other participants. It seems like a fair term, here.
phm: I guess you ban people if they seem to move too many conversations in undesirable directions.
jrayhawk: Yeah, I’m quite surprised that didn’t happen. I personally didn’t do it because watching kanzure bash his head against a wall for several hours is actually kinda funny.
jrayhawk: So maybe not all participants.
Do all those people think that I’m delusional, and they only spend time on me to study something broken-in-an-interesting-way? Not likely, is it? So what’s going on? Is it just a ‘party trick’, a con that they’re all falling for?
I offered you an easy way to veto Operation Trollfish. The fact that you left the door ajar is a sign to me that you are a much better leader than Amon.
I will also make the offer to any F3 member reading this. (providing the account wasn’t created after this post was posted).
If any F3 member thinks ‘Op Trollfish is likely to be bad for F3’, they can reply to this post saying ‘I’m taking you up on the offer to veto Op Trollfish’ or however they’d like to phrase it, and I won’t do it.
What do you think Amon would have done in this situation? read https://forum.fractalfuture.net/t/what-is-a-troll-some-zero-state-history and tell me if you think Amon is a good leader for an online group of transhumans.
And I didn’t just post that to say ‘I told you so’, and to @nuzz: ‘who’s laughing now?’. But, … I told you so. Who’s laughing now?
(and I’m only pickin’ on @nuzz because I know it’s not going to hurt his feelings )
The ZS reaction to the boundary testing wasn’t surprising, and nobody came off looking ‘bad’, but only a handful of people came off looking good.
Another point: we talked in chat about where the boundaries for f3 are. And you said something like ‘it’s flexible’, which for me is as good as hearing that there aren’t any boundaries, and I’m happy to take your word for that without needing to test it. Contrast that with how Amon dealt with it.
I’m doing with F3 exactly what i was doing with ZS, and for the exact same reasons, (but it got me into trouble there). But I don’t think it will get me into the same trouble here. You will pass the tests.
In our chat I already revised my probability to 95%. Even if you have some significant information that I don’t have, it’s still very much unclear how much that information really puts you into a more favourable light.
Anyway, all I’m saying is that you seem to be delusional about some of your skills. I didn’t quantify that claim. You might only slightly delusional about them. Or you might be massively delusional. The higher you estimate your own skills, the more plausible it appears that you are more delusional about them.
Estimating your own skills and abilities correctly is an important meta-skill. Being slightly too optimistic about them might have net positive effects, if it leads you to do things you would otherwise not have dared. On the other hand, being overly optimistic about your skills may prevent you from practising them at the right pace. If you think, you can do everything already, what reason is there to learn and grow?
I don’t feel confident enough to guess who you would consider “delusional” to answer this question. Please don’t answer to this point publicly, but contact me in private about it, if at all.
This needs more qualification. Better for what purpose? Better at doing what? Better in which class?
What are your criteria for a person to be in the “top”?
You invest a lot of time and energy into touching sore spots and rubbing it in. And you’re quite good at that. That is, until your lack of diplomacy causes people to reject you. Detecting sore spots is seen as valuable skill, because it is. The historic Socrates was great at it. Was he infamous for what he did? Pretty much. Was he liked for doing that? Not by those people that he owned! It eventually got him killed. Do you see yourself as acting in the way that Socrates did?
I don’t even know how Operation Trollfish really looks like. Do you think it would be a good idea to discuss a hypothetical strategy here in this thread?
No, the trouble you might get into here will be of a different kind. Perhaps something along the lines of having to answer 100 difficult questions that nail you to the cross.
@ Radivis :
maybe you should consider, that in teal organizations everybody is encouraged to work in his own style on his own initiative. is it really clever to stop somebody who wants to do a job for you?
but probably you have a point here:
to mention the possible negative aspect could be considered as bad marketing! although especially this particular point convinced me to vote for operation trollface. and if his approach works for me, because i am an arrogant tosser for all my life and i don´t care…( i believe so…i guess…maybe) his approach could also work for others that are like me.
so why stop him? if he fails and could not tempt any new person to join this forum, you have proof that his marketing skills are not better than yours. but if he has the power to ruin the reputation of this f3 he has proven his point, because to achieve that he must have acquired very good marketing skills! i think this is a win-win situation, so i think you should let him try!
@ Peter :
In the case that the person in question would be doing more harm than good, then yes.
Are you sure attracting more of your kind into the F3 is a good idea?
We need a good mixture of personalities here, not a bunch of people who think they are better than everyone else without actually getting anything done. I’m not saying this description fits to anyone in particular in this forum. Also, I’m not saying this description doesn’t fit anyone in particular in this forum. It’s just meant as prototype of a character that wouldn’t further the actual goals of the F3: To envision and create a better future. We need to attract actual visionaries and creators. If we make ourselves too attractive for the wrong character type, we’ll just stay an insignificant talking club forever.
I’m pretty sure that ruining the reputation of a group is easier than improving its reputation to the same degree. So, I wouldn’t see that result as proof of “very good” marketing skills.
It’s easy to see win-win situations everywhere, if you redefine “loss” as “win”.
sometimes you are too serious and sober for my taste. if transforming the world into a better place would be such a disciplined, strategic and grave business like it often seems to be when i read your lines and not the creative, explosive and playful funprocess i always hoped for, then maybe you have your explanation why it is so difficult to lure people into this…
definitely! do you have any doubts about that? ( please don´t answer this ! )
I sense wrong dichotomies. Playing games if often a very disciplined, strategic, and grave business, but it’s fun in the end, nevertheless. It’s too bad that this doesn’t seem to be intuitive common sense. Work hard = play hard
Work is fun. Fun is work.
heh. I wrote this on ZS in 2013:
ZS Principles: I think there is one missing: FUN.
Don’t take yourselves too seriously. Relax. Be happy. Be calm. Be zen.
Be chilled. Laugh. Joke. Smile. Have fun!
(what is the point of doing anything if you’re always miserable?)
If someone starts getting all butthurt and talking like a pompous
stick up their ass; you remind them of the principle of FUN!
This will solve a lot of problems, I feel.
They did not respond with so many smiles
True, but I can’t ruin your reputation. You don’t control me. I am out of control. I hate the whole: groups should present a ‘united front’ idea.
Yeah, but dont fuel my messiah delusions!
Love it! I couldn’t agree more, some movements take themselves far too seriously.
Ah, that gives me an idea: I could rename Fractal Future to “Serious Future”
Anyway, at least we have a section dedicated to fun here: The Café category!
It’s funny how that name change would make people take the forum less seriously, ahahah
Now go be amorphous and liberate some peeps from the FaceMatrix book.
Noobo: “I can’t go back, can I?”
Amorphous: “No. But if you could, would you really want to? I feel I owe you an apology. We have a rule. We never free a mind once it’s reached a certain age. It’s dangerous, the mind has trouble letting go. I’ve seen it before and I’m sorry.”
Hi all, I was thinking about the usefulness of 1 document to help introduce F3 along side what we already have like the About page
###Eureka a PDF!
I thought I’d make a PDF format for my own reference, to keep on the desktop or in directory if ever I wanted to refer to it off-line or avoid browsing on-line for it. So having a PDF as a marker and not needing the browser can help in some way that maybe the link to the about page doesn’t quite have in speed or preference. It’s less pages in comparison.
##Collect them all!
I’m a bit of a community collector - which is basically taking the best I can from each community and what they got right for me and a directory is what I have, off-line. Even in today’s connected world it’s a great way of making sure a) I’ll remember you / preserve what I saw good here and b)I can refer to material I talk about on my own site directly to the info without 404 broken file/page links possible in the future. ( It’s remarkable how many have moved, change site structure, layout & theme, been bullied / threatened etc.)
Some of the above can help keep with digital world which can inefficient / duplicated but fast but also very fragile environment where your click can be dead AT ANY MOMENT. So having your own copy can help be efficient in your way and not rely on others so much.
Added to my offer of this file some kind of repository / storage for different F3 material (maybe some art too if you want) might help.
- So a few different digital versions of importance
- the equivalent to having flyers or other digital material as hand-out type stuff
- this will also encourage user creation having it in different formats (currently I see LOTS of text only)
- and different ways of looking at the similar intentions and the community.
As I write this the convenience of a PDF may only measurable be for me, but as it’s created and I’ve explained the points titles and in bold above, I hope my feeling that like-minded people are out they are doing he same is true. PDF is definitely something more easy to scroll, can zoom and possibly more printer friendly for some people’s set-up.
#BONUS / SLIGHTLY OFF-TOPIC
##Interested in the process of the PDF?
For those interested in making a PDF or my methodology - here are my steps:
- Open OpenOffice Writer
- Copied the info from About page into OpenOffice
- Make pages as full as possible
(deleted Google Hangouts for my own reasons + it helped to be 3 full pages instead of 3 and a bit left over into 4th page.
- resized fractal picture (not so big and text wrapped around)
- added forum tool bar at bottom (optional version without this possible)
- exported as PDF
(and lastly of course replied to topic and clicked upload (in reply toolbar) and pointed to the PDF on my disk)
Fractal Future Forum (About).pdf (114.1 KB)
and here’s the open office document in the case it’s useful or PDF is wanted to be changed (open, this file, make changed and click Export As PDF…)
oh just noticed I can’t upload .ODT files… so it’s zipped - perhaps someone can allows that, thanks!
Fractal Future Forum (About).zip (133.4 KB)
##Free School / Off-line thoughts
I’m Free Schooler. I see my self as a kind of Free School where ever I am. That means eventually when people decide to focus on education and stopping their unuseful activities then I’m really able to teach those that can take the best from me and implement it as they want for themselves - when you find someone who has done a lot of work / homework and tried to be neutral about things I think those people are gems… a self-compliment and perhaps more I’m suggesting people (the gems) are HIGHLY underused due to their own beliefs and principles and also other people’s blocking principles and beliefs. Something clear, digestible / bite-sized manner can be more confidently said yes or no to. I’d like to think of the future as one big free school - assisting anybody who have chosen to explore or upgrade any kind of knowledge, awareness or something of that nature - in a modular learning pattern and being able to jump as their impulse tells them (biological signals at the base level) with some learning of one’s own habits to ask for help in curbing them with others that may have passed / over come them.
I think the fact that business run things eventually means we’ll either be cornered like chess pieces or we’ll choose to run away realising that business can and will get to wherever we are again or has beat us to it in the multitude of ways it can.
Once the methodology is there, I think off-line things makes sure business intervention is minimal / less-existent or a more specific chosen sin… instead of all-under-one-roof styles of data houses. Perhaps many communities are aiming to wards more sufficiency in their members and lack of options in real life may reflect that. The missing part is what to do by ourselves.
Needing the internet is perhaps the preparation for what to do off-line too… because internet is also whole infrastructure, cost and physical mass and those connected often find (or I do) that I actually would prefer something else but from lack of options remain here. I actually quite almost everything and this is one of the last forums on the list… so goodbye!.. No not yet…
People want more and more to keep those meaningful things, and achieving less distraction and more focus is one of them. Sadly the internet can arguable do more distraction with those willing to catch people in their own ideas of spinning the world for non-human reasons. You might agree that after a certain level, if you had a few good people around you and some material to work with then the physically needed manning of the internet could be less of an occupation for us all because we found something better to do. The internet is good, but there is better in the above respects once you have been on here and seen it all somewhat.
So it’s helpful to me to practice locally having files, encrypted of course, so I can be a Free School and have as a tool for education some material to conversation / dedicated deliberate consented training or as distributed peer-to-peer style contact.
Yes, that is a very important point. The information on the web is highly volatile. You may think that there is an Internet Archive (also called the WaybackMachine), but it has a patchy memory. Unfortunate circumstances have caused me to lose some contents I’ve released in some previous blogs of mine. The Internet Archive wasn’t too useful at restoring them.
This is why it’s actually a good idea to download some very good pages, and articles. I regularly make backups of the whole F3. But in reality, your content on the F3 belongs to you. You can download everything you’ve written on the F3 by clicking on the “Download My Posts” button on your profile page. That’s a really awesome feature of the Discourse software, and it should actually be used. What if something happened to me, and I was unable to maintain the forum? I hope that won’t happen, but you never know. In theory, other admins could make a backup of the forum and restore it on their own VPS. In reality, no F3 member is actually prepared for doing that, most likely because the F3 is still young and small.
Interesting idea. We have something for that with the
thread, but we could create more threads with different types on non-standard-text content. If you have an idea, just start a new thread and tell people what kind of contents are expected.
Ok, that’s fixed now. You can upload .odt files now. Any other wishes for file formats you’d like to upload onto the forum?
Not that I can think of… however… some other good idea related…
I’ve been thinking about what I do (hard to say!) but like you see the pattern here, perhaps knowledge and some kind of mutual education = freeschool.0id.org so I could think how that could benefit things here.
The file format reminded me of how many different types I have but not on-line or so focused mainly portable software, best software in general, TXT files, QUOTES (my own and others), JPG, PDF, MAFF, HTML, MP3, best AVI and few others type connected to themes / other people / communities / genres… maybe could add / merge it a bit more but not sure exactly how and maybe it’s for you to suggest that… rather than cloud you mind with what I’d call it… maybe have a look at freeschool.0id.org