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Trolls / Trolling / Similar behaviour / patterns - Main points designed for self-study: Solving, Negotiating & Avoiding Self-traps

###2016 Feb update: Table of contents + revisions (if any) elsewhere

  • I’ve added a Table Of Contents externally since February. It’s a plugin which takes text and automatically makes headers into a TOC! Re-ordering headers is MUCH easier/clearer whilst writing and I dare say when readings down the page too! Sorting out the order of headers & indentation was a sign of self-relief I hope you’ll share.

  • Using keyboard keys HOME, PGUP / PGDN makes for easier manoeuvring <—> easier reading and writing.

  • Yes even the TOC is long but now managable! In no way is this to get you to go there purely.

TOC was requested on the forum / maybe passed on to Discourse guys so who knows :tada:

**Further revisions mean I’m ‘no longer updating it here’ but actually I’m no longer updating it much (mostly it’s more organised)

Main points and main body of work is now finished.

###Title revision

  • I revised the title to reflect self study of this topic.
  • I removed ‘DISCUSSION’ because I realised this was misleading and it’s just self-discussion and more self-study for interested people or future reference.
  • I removed ‘ANALYSIS’ too for similar reasons.

This piece of work is in and around Troll definition purely because many may weight it differently. It’s quite subjective (taking place within the mind and modified by individual bias) and therefore becomes too close to other genuine behaviour and almost impossible to separate when it’s also able to change in other people’s minds at any time. A ‘troll’ or potential ‘troll’ may just be someone with focus or feeling turned INTO something else which seems or is more destructive/reactive to one of more individuals. The rest below will surely confuse more than this as it goes into more specific sub-categories or examples. It’s hard to know what’s really going on in the mind…

###Continual Revision
I will keep revising things over the coming days and weeks at my leisure, purely because work is never complete for big works / collections like this, and well I’m also enjoying learning too and being able to practice writing. For that reason I’m not calling for any discussion or response as I feel / know I’ll go through phases of more and less writing and perfect it in time with the right process. Sometimes it’s a better system (for me) to come back to it later; re-read from a fresh mind, allow people to enjoy main points and be personally satisfied with it as it is, else edit it some more. Constantly striving for more or being dissatisfied whilst focusing on never-ending work (life) could be considered ‘life’ itself in some way. Troll like behaviour is perhaps the unhappy kind… I’m generally happy to see great minds also apply the similar process but I don’t feel people should need to use others to justify themselves too. Whatever else happens from here, please consider that I also wrote this for reference and it wasn’t meant to waste your time. Just take what you can and enjoy reading some of this!.. Thank you also for any long / hard pieces of work you have done and know that people do thank you even if never heard of you / met you etc etc.


##Introduction & tips for reading
This document is split up into a few main sections, which help to pick and choose session of reading. Horizontal lines should separate these main parts and will have biggest headers (H1 or #).

###Why I wrote this / Aims
This subject is really interesting and I think it mixes enough complex and contexts that regularly make it sufficiently complicated or next to impossible for people to understand and focus or dissect during expression of feelings and progress from that point on-the-fly.

Multiple points, rapid conversations and rapid multiple conversations involved with chatting in fairly short time frames or live over the internet are included towards troll or other human behaviour. Some of the subjects or content on this page may even push ‘your buttons’ or stimulate mixed feelings for a variety of reasons - before any comments have a look why in yourself and find a nice way to point to your expression via Private Message to keep page clear. (I’m also happy to make changes here though I would like very few comments in general to avoid more on-line time)

###Why the word ‘troll’ stimulated me to write so much
This word is quite universal and subjective. Trying to find out which of the many versions exist or what you might have personally found similar or experienced seems fun, both on the receiving end of chat, a spectator or when sending such words and comments to describe someone or a pattern to others.

Ultimately this word is not so useful or precise (it’s ambiguous / personal opinion / unclear ) so you can end reading here if you can accept that and avoid the variations and combinations of patterns below and instead work it out at the time what someone might mean by using this word.
It’s maybe similar to the words ‘good’ or ‘bad’ - they can mean lots and need deeper clarification - which is what below is.

###Aim

  • People do seem to want to be able to express and articulate properly or to a high level reflecting how they feel. This could be one of the essentials to one existing and being happy (or being very unhappy without).
  • In your next experience of ‘troll’ or ‘trolling’ (from either viewpoints) my aim is that you can both explore or use this document as reference and inspirational education for such occurrences / events.

Experience + External Research (a little of both)

In a friendly and smiling way, I’ll let you know that the word troll came up towards my early efforts to write why I’m not what someone suggested / allured to! This ended well and can be considered experience of being here even though it was only few days after signing up! I did contributed/write a lot about something so I say this in a jovial / we’re-all-talking-in-the-pub kind of way - but also give caution that our previous experiences (or the previous forums we’ve been on before this) can put hurdles in the way of now when we call out so early or without doing some simple clarifying steps first. In no way is all this disrespect / harm or resentment felt from that and happy to edit this part out too. Mentioning this forum as an example for context / experience is to show we can get passed all this and it can be really simple to crack (simple when you know how) and time is always needed - coming to a conclusion too quickly can also be a problem and is included in troll discussion as adding towards / creating ‘troll’ behaviour.

###Being ‘Too clever’ or too experienced

  • Starting work on something that looks similar to another thing can inadvertently add another hurdle inform of more confusion that can prevent actually looking at what it is now and respecting the now and it’s uniqueness, using any experience from the past (+ or -)
    as a constructive tool picking what’s useful more in a neutral component form.
  • Calling out so early may also risks bigger decisions or things (people losing moral / quitting) if some simple clarifying steps first are not done (smaller decision making / less risk / incremental accuracy).
  • Unless somebody declares themselves really a ‘Troll’, consider you maybe making a mistake speaking on their behalf too early. The main points detailed below are supposed to help you putting component parts of feelings and behaviour together without calling / grouping things into misleading / over-grouping names.

###Assumptions of Language (hardly works) and being understood completely (hardly possible)
I wrote in the title of this document I wrote the word “discussion” to describe it and as a good example of misleading words I realised it was actually self-discussion and designed more for reference or self-study (my own and others). It just seems too easy in language (especially from a far over electrons) to get it always wrong… or never right (such is the nature of being human and perhaps never understood). Assume you might have to ask everyone what they mean or just relax about things and accept 100% understanding isn’t so achievable without dedicated / extreme amounts of time, dedicated / extreme amounts of reading/writing/talking about it! Also the level of others around you can prevent 100% understanding and not aiming for 100% respects this difference between people and accepting/agreeing less of a percentage can be seen as a result overall better than an endless loops constantly failing to go higher. These gains or changing of loops are the responsibility of everyone to do what seems right for them considering a little the others too at the time…

###Either way feelings are going to get risked (perhaps hurt)
Progress or any effort more than watching TV may hurt (you might be called many things). Even the good things which helps to remember too.
You could be the next candidate for being called ‘troll’ but probably not if you aren’t too deep into anything! Start to do work and for sure someone will say something, and that’s an opportunity to go a few ways (such as clarifyinf what it is you’re actually doing, gently inviting those to help or educating/providing some other reasoning or aim / result).

###Documentation
This is perhaps a document that feels like it may help understand / distinguish ‘trolls’ or what is similar and not before ever using the word. I assure you I’ve never been called that before but I can see why I had mixed feeling and why some cases I have researched people had different reactions. Such is the way of the internet… hey ho! I hope we can grow / find better ways to go (better for all that is).

###Time, energy and education can solve everything?
You will need some time, energy and reading to discover things. Hard to get around that. If you haven’t learnt to read, better to find some kind of way like listening to the audio book version of this. Writing yourself may help in forums like these, others may output somewhere else in some other way or simply quit frequently (only to meet more of the same people and never fully escape judgement on-line or anything that is limited by small time-frame and narrow view of one’s self AND the expectation that you have all the answers!).

Yes it seems it’s too difficult to try, and those people thinking that could also not use the word ‘troll’. I think overall this kind of learning / reading is what can really dispel / decrypt / decipher any future unclear experiences by following process AND feelings between two or more people. A type of upgrade or wisdom. Start learning now if you think in future these things described will happen to you or link to it for later reference and search your words to read up of those bits!

##Time for 'a cup of tea’
Go ahead, please make your self a cup of tea (or whatever that will help) to take a break from the start of this journey. Come back to your chair after your break will less excitement or expectation and just repeat this reviewing process using the ‘cup of tea method’.

##More importantly NEVER give up…
…unless you really are sure you’re defeated or out of your depth in some way, never close this browser window, Just get more cups of tea!

###Answers and usage of the word ‘troll’
I’m not claiming to have all the answers or perspectives here. The aim is just to show some definitions and thoughts to increase your imagination about what is or isn’t a ‘troll’ and their own perspective as a victim or how it might have started out more subtle but went wrong / mistaken for something that grew too far in one way. Perhaps ‘trolls’ are quite like you or me and come with some qualities or intentions, aims, beliefs that are still there or got skewed to the point of obscurity for others. Often points of real truth or personal feeling can be from people who felt like they had to go one way more than the other. Perhaps they decided to go a bit kamikaze too to show for the previous people’s inability to handle them well. A hole bunch of reasons that still don’t justify such a subjective name if it’s not attempted to make clear or resolve things without too much pressure (nobody like too much pressure right?)

###Make the decision / the choice
Like a decision tree or history of events in our lives deep we know we’ve become effected or kept some of the energy’s good and bad… but like the decision tree we can see more clearly what we’ve chosen and perhaps re-think things. Perhaps parts are more for ‘trolls’ too consider what their impulse or compulsion is and try another softer punch to gain other entry points and ask / gain consent before going further. For people like me that write a lot I put a disclaimer I can refer to in my about page… saying something like I get misunderstood often or talk gibberish for some while others take the best they can.

And as ‘non-trolls’ perhaps, we can also feel we have to call people names more than explain other parts of what we mean based on actualities or facts for example or what fallacy is etc etc… So this writing is also about the usage of the word towards other people and not only one side’s views or blaming only one person actions.

###Main weapons of Troll
This header is meant to start as an almost affectionate way of referring to the name ‘troll’. It also help adopt a gamified viewpoint that not only pays respect to the dynamics we know exists between people and ‘trolls’ but also possibility of using the power for something good or something else and generally having good-will or working towards something good overall.

###Beyond the game
A game that seems terrible or not worth it / perhaps impossible, its only a playable game and not as bad as we initially thought when someone showed us how to win (together) or how we allow ‘trolls’ to also have a turn at the game… and even in some cases turn the tables on what we thought we were playing and now is looking like playing us!


ok next main section…
##We make trolls too
I think we can make ‘trolls’ or trolls can be ‘made’ by how we collectively think and shape the world. So for example if society is messed up or hasn’t any other open forums for free speech… then guess what you end up with? More of it elsewhere AND perhaps some intermittent clarity, but at a bigger cost (personal cost or overall spread).

Lots of people will go to where they can get some expression out in a world it’s minimised / suppressed. As human we might agree that we like to speak about it in various ways. If there didn’t exist places or more suitable forums (or ways to connect to those others) then eventually more will come here (we could say that’s also generally ‘the internet’) instead of going more ‘there’ (the hushed workplace or after some limits of expression, a police state). Everyone is also going through a learning process… no-one want to be in a police cell to explain that.

Some other points towards helping make trolls:

  • when we don’t allow or accept other ways of communicating we can potentially create a troll or try to box in people when space is not there or understood or catered for to begin with
  • Results in misunderstood people pushing out their expression or energy in some other way, or showing people what trolling really is especially if trolling is already referred to (naturally feeling taunted perhaps) - almost a suggestion to act that way by saying so (even if it’s a humorous play at first)
  • when people see it’s too hard to convince others of their overwhelming non-acceptance and fixed attitude/expectations
  • They can may avoid focus on self-changing since they are not getting any help or arguably heckling type advice instead.

‘Trolling’ might be the finding or looking for something better and go about in some ‘wrong way’ or simply carrying the hate given in plentiful amounts by environments, even passive types corning from people / passively aggressive decision-making systems / policies / conquering you and me, Earth etc.

##We do have animal like behaviours that justify ‘troll’ - but we’re maybe some other animal or being more accurately
There are really strong characters out, and eventually some are willing to do damage much more easily when less value is given to them. I believe even in the human in the animal sense will give up or at least occupy their time different is valued by others (serving them in some way well) and / or if something else of value should that exist for them and be more fun / long-term.

People are killing off our options even as we speak in the name of advancing so even if by nature I might be a ‘troll’ (which could be a very focused, one-minded being’ I might actually be more a ‘fox’, a ‘bear’, a ‘humming bird’ where I have my focuses and skills (like persistence and flexibility in my environment) but if there’s a good game (or let’s say plenty of food) then maybe I’ll be there and not need to do the rest of what I was doing before.

Summary: We can avoid doing the damage we do to respect our animal selves in exchange for the other options as humans more than animals - but importantly not killing it off and allowing it to be practised occasionally. Doing nothing is an option too, but that takes more time to understand and sit in people, including writing lots and then giving up / moving up in a slightly different way. If we can show respect for all these things, people can move on themselves much more easily and to better things for them.

Internet is feeding us? Or are we feeding the internet?

Such is the nature of the internet and addictive nature of the internet + humans, that all the actions seem to encourage more loops and repetition that we wither do or don’t feel we have control with. These flaws or impulses from humans, call it eye-candy, call it gamification (point & clicking managing something looking like it’s progress but often not) all = together but not really.
All those kinds of paradoxes from the many coming together but feeling alone afterwards I believe is also by design responsible for what actually happens. All this seems ours but actually, most of it isn’t. All the hardware, software, the access, the huge internet infrastructure cost to exist, is simply sold to us, and us expecting for it to do more than the carefully planned design, I think I’m just discovering myself it’s limits.

I’m personally ‘trolling’ all these downloads and good speakers on the internet, the great words that I kind of know already and need to actually implement in our children and people around. But where am I and where are they? ‘Trolling’ just endlessly consuming the short loops. Like the TV we might have forgot we just preferred to sit there in front of it. When does it change from ‘trolling’ and tracking stuff to the next big level up… I hope when it changes the political or public thinking then all is justified… otherwise I’m just talking more to those who will stay in their loops too.

###Belief / hope keeps us ‘trolling’ / going
I guess the belief that the next steps are out there helps keep going and seeing the small changes helps a ‘troll’ or anyone else practically wanting from something different… I think some people are also deeply unhappy too but that I don’t think that’s always consistently ‘trolls’ ! Lots of ‘others’ more than people who are or temporarily want to enjoy what ‘troll’ behaviour feels like (power, experimentation, change of positions)

##There is no consistent alternative to the net!
In many social and working areas things have been so locked down or micro-managed to industrial levels, that you can move without someone knowing and ‘supervising’. Repetitive action is required and preffered NOT expression. Lock-down. That in itself s hard for a human being to accept or shake as a feeling. Not being able to express is a danger when talking as how many of us have caught ourselves over-flowing streams of information or reaction once we are allowed / welcomed / invited…

###Are trolls created and encouraged to grow from other peoples scepticism / accusations / disagreement?

I think there is quite a heavy price paid when some has suspicion towards another with 0 grounds or mostly distrustful ones… consistently negative and scores less without or without any positives. This something that I’ve never quite been able to pin until maybe now…

##Comparison of trolls may be similar to genuine people:

Both have a lot of time
Both repeat things
Both care in some way
Both are persistent
Both hate unjustified remarks or unresolved issues

The price paid by the person on the receiving end (and often less on the person that initiated / accusing) - often comes from the sayers (internal issues, insecurity, free time spent in less-progressive/less-skilled ways). If there was more of a cost (money or own reputation) for people to say things to other, they would definitely reword and make things a lot more fact based or less subjective. Things that people are unsure personally they might not say especially things others can’t prove enough to even mention - an could do well to redefine in a more solvable way in regards to self-feeling or some other overall asking for help rather than directing / re-directing things at others… and avoid something more consistently negative and go for something definitely positive…
###Judgement & accusations
Announcing judgement or questions automatically puts us (even those on the page reading ) in a whole other area perhaps unwanted in current conversation, without consent let’s say, and then talking on the back foot towards a negative style of defence & justification arising from someone else’s negative / less optimistic outlook. How are we ever going to solve that?? And does it fall on one often unfortunate person to help them with all that?

Accusations more than anything else often don’t have a health base or result. Something more proactive me thinks we build rather than try to grab things we’re guessing / not sure of in ourselves / etc etc without asking for help and asking for permission somewhat to explore things with each other on-line in a different way.

##Various Definitions - interesting references to the word ‘troll’ + some key comments.

All of these should help show either the word ‘troll’ or the person in a different light since it seems to mean so much to so many people or relate to many different circumstances most of which a troll has managed to expose more than cause perhaps from the very beginning other than entertainment, some other kind of blockage, expression or feeling of unfairness.

Some examples I can relate to in theory or some I have observed or experienced.

I hope these below will inspire thought about how subjective it is and perhaps something more objective, including waiting and seeing what more happens, is a better idea than continuing the same line of conversation if it’s obviously degrading / critically unhelpful.

from… https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

In Internet slang, a troll is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an on-line community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion, often for their own amusement.

I think the above is a really good description. I also show after discussing this other versions I found that give other lights, again surprisingly helpful to look at again especially if you use it.

##from Wikipedia Internet troll and ‘Usage’ paragraph:

Application of the term troll is subjective. Some readers may characterize a post as trolling, while others may regard the same post as a legitimate contribution to the discussion, even if controversial. Like any pejorative term, it can be used as an ad hominem attack, suggesting a negative motivation.

The advice to ignore rather than engage with a troll is sometimes phrased as "Please do not feed the trolls."
I personally see the above as some kind of abandoning of a situation, which while needed sometimes, could be more clearly practically re-phrased as an opinion more than someone observing an animal.

Something like:

I feel I’ve reached my own limits of trying currently or am not sure how to process without thinking it’s hopeless, I think it may be wise for you to also consider feeding any more energy unless you’re sure that you know and understand the initial situation / perspective of this person and how to approach the situation from this point towards something constructive".

Feel free to write your own version and we’ll have a solid list of phrases. This may stun people if it’s obvious about the care in writing so carefully and saying it in whatever way seems to fit the context. “Don’t feed the trolls” just seems to make things worse <-- Agree?

##Trolling from Urban Dictionary

Trolling (voted top defintion)

Being a prick on the internet because you can. Typically unleashing one
or more cynical or sarcastic remarks on an innocent by-stander, because
it’s the internet and, hey, you can.

Guy: “I just found the coolest ninja pencil in existence.”

Other Guy: “I just found the most retarded thread in existence.”

by EREALLY GUD DEFUNITION MAKUR
November 11, 2004
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=trolling

Techopedia.com “troll” definition (excerpt)

Often, a troll will make obvious and inflammatory statements that are meant to bait new users (newbies) into reacting.
https://www.techopedia.com/definition/429/troll

I think that excerpt when reversed (which I know doesn’t always work that way in language) can seem to mean that experience people don’t get baited so much so much or perhaps have a constructive reactionary response. I think that’s true to some degree and perhaps needs re-writing to check what the original author mean. Is it that new users (to the computing world) are likely to react more / get baited ? Is it all overall good for troll and ‘new’ user? I’m not sure there are any new users of any kind left other than date they joined something or maybe it’s ‘new’ as in some new topic to someone else. (new user to the topic or subject)

Also mentions

To hang around a chat room reading the posts instead of contributing to the chat.

Congratulations! I guess this makes us all trolls here. (poor definitions like these highlight for me the ease, the danger and the speed of things being MIS-funderstood). Yeah the f is deliberate there.

Also mentions:

Trolls tend towards clearly inappropriate language (sexist, racist and so on) and depend on generic user-names or anonymous posting statuses.
With true accountability on the Internet unlikely - and even undesirable in some ways - trolls are going to continue lurking around.

####PERSONAL stuff related to previous definition

  • I’ve found before being caught under this very type of definition/viewpoint or accused of it having similar traits. I think we all do if we care somehow. I found this maybe more socially than on-line (which is why I perhaps moved here only to find it’s the same or worse sometimes though I do talk about fractilic future things so I don’t blame people too much! Guess they/we all need time…). So it’s not the language or racism part I’ve been experiencing every now and again (more you try more you experience) but under but the anonymous and accountability perception - this thought that if you keep anonymous that you’re going to be less responsible with your words. It’s like automatic Minority Report (film) or something. For example I like to talk objectively and less personally - to connect things too personally unless really useful is typically 100% distracting (at least to me and those I’ve experienced prior who focus on any negative part they pick up on) and personal kind (Ad-homimem) is like embedded perhaps into the colony unless you really had neutral parents or something,

##…speech continued in form of privacy (shorten??)

  • Then this then this privacy or idea of it implies hiding something more than (for example) not letting people run away with the narrow look of on-line and just don’t cause further problems, AND JUST CHILL! Similar to people who have problems of wanting to be photographed, they have their own issues their constantly working on or have simply chosen different… We could go into all the reasons but people are not willing to spend the time!

Photographs of you can be used in the future (forget even the on-line implications) just people might not like that capture snapshot - doesn’t show all what happened that day and I would say A LOT of people don’t imagine there was more and it’s enough to judge or act on something without respecting others. No-one likes being devalued and any kind of media including that on-line can do that in ‘pessimistic’ or devaluing hands.

Privacy being somehow directly connected with something bad, more than just someone not wanted to be further misunderstood in this narrow history of what someone wrote at the time is obviously another thing. Constantly more technology and tech is used for purposes of judgement and decision making. Even if one is were genuine it wouldn’t really show and highlight more than those that are triggered from pre-existing built up often frustrated or already pissed off/dissatisfied perspectives and problems (+ own agendas) of their own and want to think only in set ways because it might be better for them or their interferes with their physiological dispositions much like a mark on a plate would and you would go to wipe it even if was just that plates design and you knew it! To block anything ‘suspicious’ in favour of no change / apparent danger patterns associated with others is a mistake and needs more care which I feel only education like this document may hint towards. Education is not something fully pump and amped with money in this department - I dare say it would be seen as a waste & mis-spent. And yet we use all this and say so much…


excerpt from Professor James Moriarty

jrayhawk: A troll moves conversations in directions ostensibly undesirable to other participants. It seems like a fair term, here.

phm: I guess you ban people if they seem to move too many conversations in undesirable directions.

jrayhawk: Yeah, I’m quite surprised that didn’t happen. I personally didn’t do it because watching kanzure bash his head against a wall for several hours is actually kinda funny.

jrayhawk: So maybe not all participants.

This excerpt I think really shows the different kinds of dynamics or personality types which can work in a variety of ways. With different people it would be totally different.


##As this is already quite long, I have split points by headers which you can then read individually down the page. Perhaps read only the header right now to get the flow of the points and then come read those header below that interest you. This keeps it relative and to your choice/flavour for reading. If you read all of it then perhaps your committing too much in one go. This is meant for taking in as much as pleasant for you…

Each header is a situation, a comment or examples with trolls or with other of similar energy which maybe be subject to misjudgement or misunderstanding (I think this can apply or help all not just trolls, it’s maybe a fine line since anyone can change mode / mood at any time)

###‘Trolls’ help to…
‘Trolls’ can bring out almost everything that was either underlying or there already, something not sorted out / thought out fully or trolls brought to attention perhaps at unwanted times. Any unsorted politics, prior fights not solved or personal feelings between people maybe start or re-start because people’s house’s were not in order and any ‘Troll’ saw that as matter to either play with or even solve for you in some way. Left to chance (which of course people have the right to do) others can come along and if it’s not clear start to work on things and perhaps not understand. So be ready to understand things yourself and break down anything (or everything) that is not clear. On-line work perhaps hasn’t been perfect and it’s either too open or too closed. It’s still all being worked out.

###Throttling
So the consideration or moderation of behaviour by everyone definitely needs feedback from each other without being too harsh to show how they feel without adding more fire on top. People need help managing things because this area of the internet, chatting and communication overall, is still be growing in how and why it’s used - this may not be all the ‘trolls fault’ directly and even you’re own for not being ready :slight_smile:

####from film: The Matrix

“Ballard: You’re asking for one of us to disobey a direct order.
Morpheus: That’s right, I am. But we all well know that the reason that most of
us are here is because of our… affinity for disobedience.”

So this quote I chose because it kind of reminds us that rules are not flexible enough to apply to all situations or cater for them and sometimes people feel they must keep value in some other way which happens to against rules or standards, but wasn’t the main reason for it.
The reason we’re in this forum perhaps is we are thinking differently and so this unites us in some way at the same time as separate us. Expect fireworks and everything to go swimmingly :slight_smile:

##ok about half done so far … I’ll announce when it’s finished… it will take days.

##Small Paragraphs of Discussion Points

##find a nice way, don’t risk too much
Looking at one’s self to see if there is an over-spending of energy or sacrifice of sort should avoid allowing any person, including ‘troll’ to converse beyond your means or strength. It’s possible to try reach something nice but sometimes it’s good to take a time-out, maybe not so obviously saying so if you feel that’s better in the situation, but definitely no leaving it too long or risking forgetting about it. If your risking critical emotional damage, time to stop playing the game of chat. That goes for ‘troll’ or anyone else, assuming we all have personal limits in any given thing.

###learning the nice way
A learning process during the game of chat can show us all something without being at cost to one person intentionally. Sure we can become sensitive or wants something to the extent of making conversation too serious, but try and read the situation a little and manage your expectation and meanings better. Hopefully when it’s right you can invest more energy and feel more comfortable in saying something. Too many things in one instant will allow novices to assume that’s all there is about you…

##Infinity and beyond
The infinite number of possibilities and intentions between interacting people often don’t help at first but when you start by looking at it from the that this right now is a truly unique moment and to enjoy that first, may help self-satisfy your objectives or somewhat in keep your mood and balance, and then spending them wisely when you see something relative but not jumping on it too much! Not stepping too far out and risking extremities without a disclaimer or finding distraction with other people or things not on your list of helpful things to talk about and reply to.

##Staying Solid
I think some of these things will help people stay solid but open even with a ‘troll’.
It’s perhaps more critical when levels of thought and expectation in processing get higher and more mistakes / distraction can naturally happen when you talk about things the average person might not. Almost everything could be looked at from deeper or different angles so don’t be surprised when someone quotes it back at you differently or see it differently…

##Break it and then make it again, dealing with root problems
Breaking down problems objectively or practically allow clear thoughts, even if they are of the trolling kind will help everyone (and keep replies focused or short). Rather than spilling into personal or other sorts of revenge, frustration, chains of misunderstanding we kill things off before they can spawn. This means we deal with the root problems to kill off any more of the potential unwanted stuff like in a game. Some will still arise anyway but it will be the stuff that has some kind of reasoning or something that stems from quality.

##Sparring space, towards increase of skill (levelling up / up-skilling with others)
Perhaps a way to mutually get the best from each other like some kind of sparring in sports to allow a platform where we we can shake hands and say “see you next week” really happily after a nice workout (think Ryu & Ken type relationship from Street Fighter as the healthy type of game and combat people can pick up and play). And then without the common problems of gaming and combat (addiction, unhealthy competition/self-development of one’s own ‘style’) people or their skills can move forward regularly on to other training type levels and routines in ways only that person as an individual or those as a group can choose and want to explore. Becoming better and sparring together seem to have the right incentives and ingredients to make life a great challenge.

Summary: Having space for practice can make the difference between attitudes by people. Too much focus or unhealthy stuff can feel like the arena getting smaller for either and more harder and harder feelings reaching a climx/flash point. GAME OVER. While that’s natural and happens too at higher levels sometimes (thinking to myself like Ryu as I say that) but where it might matters is respecting people as people all have strived hard or had a long history on their chosen course / path only to always perhaps feel a failing or constant one-step short of their ultimate goal at that time as the path continues and grows naturally… we could really take that into account, always whilst we bow somewhat.

##Respect is due to everyone
Everyone holds some kind of value ultimately. Giving it to trolls seems like a good idea as they have something, an art form or energy let’s say, pure focus like a mad scientists or something clearly effective in some way but also destructive in some other. We can help ourselves in the sincere sense if we can get the message or feeling across that it’s not do or die by our swords but a game where something permanently useful can come out of it, or we can move on to the next topic once limits are reached / said

##Energy
If we feel too attached, for example, if I feel this forum or this person is the measurement of my self-respect or my existence then it’s leaning too much weight on that. Something more evenly spread can keep us constantly interested.

##Say it, don’t spray it
We all have limits and there’s nothing wrong with reflecting that and importantly showing it a little without burdening your peers by leaving it too open for interpretation personally. Graciously taking a break and even graciously bowing to others and giving up is better than reaching exhaustion and collapsing - because at least you can fight a whole new fight another day. People forget the energy on the way out so if you see the other person is set in their ways, plan a nice exit / goodbye note, without spite! Just you came, you tried and went!.

##Gracious disconnects / goodbye’s on-line
Yes gracious disconnects / goodbye’s on-line can take a while too so plan a bit of energy for each stage (the hello, the chat, the problem solving, the personal differences, the exit) without making it seem so final.

##I’m trying but I feel you are not trying
If you find you are feeling disrespected by someone else’s fighting style consider for a while that it’s just a different style or different objective! Of course people can come at you for a test and start to play a bit rough but imagine it could be something less direct and not fight back so much also allows the other person to show you more, it can become boring or trolling but you can see perhaps some direction too from that instead of demanding a reply. Either way a check-in style question asking them how they feel or what they’re looking for may be useful.
Talking about one’s self is maybe the best bet at first.

##Competition
Competition is everywhere and if one feels like a victim then the need to 1-up that person to preserve one’s sense of self can result in becoming competitive. This makes the pace faster and doesn’t explore existing levels and allow things to grow before moving higher up the process.

##'Trolls are the victims?
You may start to think more like a ‘troll’ if you feel you were victim of some sort. I mentioned earlier that not having the right place or environment considerate enough for expression can make people go crazy / become frustrated / start to turn on their own kind…
Victim mentality from Wikipedia (slightly edited in grammar and context) shows why someone may react… for example if a person

  • feels they were harmed; _(deliberately or unconsciously/recklessly, indirectly or directly)
  • feels they are not responsible for the occurrence/result of an act; (something else was already there but unclear what and perhaps not troll responsibility to clear it up for them)
  • feels no obligation to prevent harm; (or not responsible for other people’s sensitivities or feelings, PLUS other things may take priority such as saying what they see or ‘the truth’ etc)
  • feels an injustice has been made at their own cost or others (the trolls rights or making a point in defence of someone else’s injustice).
  • feels they deserve sympathy or credit in some way (which I think we all do but often overlook it. Best example I can think of is being a ‘new user’ in games - people kick you instantly even though I’ve been playing that game for years and come top consistently. But never wanted an account to keep score or something). Doesn’t make sense or nobody wants to think like that and get noobs playing with ‘guest’ or ‘new user’ accounts. Again getting an account is many things including atats (just numbers), competition and status / history. It confuses things a lot between people.

Summary: Overall it may seem that person doesn’t care actually it’s often the case of the above or that these is some other priority the person / troll is focusing on. THIS DOES NOT MEAN THEY DON’T CARE AT ALL! Only that they are only showing you one or two things at that time or been given the chance. It’s also physically or virtually impossible to show all the considerations of what to show you first so assume there’s more! If we could see live the list of priorities of what people cared about we could perhaps avoid needing to explore them in anything less pure than a list. We might save this mess but since people and things are unique and also changing we do have to work it out somewhat using each other.
For example a lot of people do things based on needing to supply family with food. It’s high enough on their list that everything is demoted a lot or a little. So my actions and words my reflect those most even though for other people it makes no sense having a family if one’s principles have even let chance of existing to the extent that those principles get killed off leaving empty or enslaved people (so their own children are dead in some sense anyway). .
If there are too many people and life degrades down to this, things get pretty conflicted.

##Assumption about caring
I assume people do care on some sort of level. The spectrum of caring can vary and some people are more clear in themselves than others may like or expect. Some may get in the habit of other people showing them as a form of entertaining form of time consumption when finding their own ways and flow is over-looked. Lots of possibilities with other which is why I think tuning ourselves is perhaps the most worthwhile as there are less unknown values and we can then be ready with those other that are also ready.

##Carried away with chatting
We can of course simply get carried away with each other and forget about the other things self-important and what I see as need when maintaining conversations, such a nice level of pressure (if anything), a nice / soft tone, taking it slowly… avoiding false-hoods / popular beliefs. Sticking to talking about our selves more than others and presenting things nicely. This seems to care for others or at least not devalue them if we don’t know them personally.

##Pride or self-worth or someone else devaluing / discrediting you publicly
This is a tough one but the above title gives enough food for though about what you might do. And I suggest doing nothing at the start as the safest and perhaps considering what else you could do. Action with consideration of what was said and not going too long unless you want to encourage people to pick and choose about the response.

Addictions with writing

Some have a problems with writing short (me) so your style in reading with long-writers like may have to change to ‘skipping over it’ or speed reading (not taking it too seriously until you believe the writing has more for you or using lots of cups of tea to make part-reading sessions happen!

Light-hearted Buddha-type self-remarks

The smiling Buddha talking about how bad his is what I’m thinking here… nothing about the actual religion. A light-hearted perspective may help dispel any strong feelings and leave constructive comments to follow especially if you can be light-hearted but show you will think about that more deeply (value what they said)/ Saying something like "I get what you mean mostly and some I will literally meditate about or let it sit to surface itself… but I am quite interested in all that!

##We’re put boxes or arenas already / or got used to starting from these positions
In a documentary (NAME?) it showed that if you put animals in a few certain situations then frustrations will definitely arise from it sooner than later and they will shortly turn on each other / become destructive. I think it’s true and perhaps the least between humans criticism is rife if there isn’t a better way set in place or obvious way to solve them together.
If the lack of power we have individually is seen as stripped somewhat even before we got here, one may give and say it doesn’t matter anyway and not worry about trying more or remain careful about making any further mess if deemed irretrievable / unrecoverable / ‘not worth it’. A troll is born as we, not unlike animals, may exert our own force in other ways if we feel underneath that we’re in a desperate environment or constant frustrated state.

##Gamification
We’re all part of the same ‘game’ and this is just one of the dynamics interacting with what we might call troll but is really just another human being, sometimes super-human (processes and outputs fast). Its for us to acknowledge this and find a place for them to get to work (with consent and awareness of course)

##Deep-down feelings
The very same mixed feelings which may lay embedded, somewhat dormant in others, and may suddenly come out to surprise us all. This may be the whole reason as to why I write this - I know it will come up again for someone somewhere - and when a surprise happens we can practice knowing what to do or simply relax, recover from feeling and sort these and other things after in good spirit. Bad spirit or feeling of useless process as a consequence of perceived injustice(s) or not being understood could be the root cause of everything!

##As a reference…
…you can literally bookmark this for later to look at possible causes in a current situation or ask someone else to read it to stir insight of their own. Or simply those interested / feeding of the mind

  • (my own note: this reminds me to write about the phrase ‘do not feed the troll(s)’ as it seems to be a type of feeding of the mind also, only trolls are better than the average bear/troll at input / output in perhaps less constructive / perceived ways.

Managing conflicts or various on-line environments can be a lengthy and sometimes only indirectly rewarding (i.e. you might write something that changed the world for someone else but only they might not realise quite at that time or make effort to trace their steps back to you personally and say ‘you changed my life man, thank you’. Chat areas and competitive gaming could benefit although often they are not focus or willing to stick around long enough. This is perhaps an inherent or flawed part of design or the expectation, where we are in more of a temporary place of fun or occasionally surf the forum, having other priorities and focuses in real life, and thus troublesome by design for anything more than short-term.

##Difficult to move on
Some people can change in conversation quickly - and this is often in a more uncomfortable way, perhaps even seen as shotgun type of weapon against them (deliberately or unconsciously) so it’s important either way to move on… and try to convert it to good, maybe not needed to quote everything back but careful see what you can deal with and give healthy suggestions from what you can see. Being too precise can also run into problems, simply due to having another preference. Solid facts points will help get middle ground one can enjoy together.

##Leaving digestible pieces.
Broken down information is perhaps more helpful as demonstrated by this paragraph!

##Technology without operating advice or faster changes

  • We didn’t need education or any course to allow us to operate email or forums. We didn’t need to actually read or even understand the rules when we clicked '“I agree” - so it’s this kind of lacking that allows for troll or anyone else to really fall harder especially when pushing the boundaries of culture in some many respects. Rules are not training or considerate in all situations, which is why I like this sites ‘Guidelines and Definitions’ page. That’s incredibly well put.

####Forgive them for they are catching up with what they thought they knew.
All these problems could be the consistent result of what I see as humans simply catching up with technology, with each others direction and merely practising it without having the tools or possibilities in usage explained to them neither before it, during or hardly much more than guessed in learning even after something happens. Some examples and information basically to help understand how things work or what’s happening. Examples of effective usage. The experiences of it;
The result of conversations may look more like trial error like practices than anything taught or studied. I’m sure plenty of people are looking into the ‘what helps’ however how many are doing it together and how often? After you hit a problem you probably look something up rather than have an environment around you that expects and likes to invite you to talk about yours and other people’s problems knowing long-term it actually works! People reading and talking prior to emotions in more formats (other than this long reading or even on-line chat) will help more in digesting and understanding it.

###‘Normal’ - the expectation & the usage

  • I also attribute things to people’s habits and expectations being some kind of expectation or ‘norm’ - This is a type of fallacy from seeing the word ‘norm’ or being normal either expecting some kind of standard or a level that stays the same when everything is changing all the time (but we don’t see it as it’s so micro) - all these type of things, especially together with multiple people, are going to be likely to be cause of errors / fallible. ‘Normal’ changes, when technology changes, or when people change, every 7years, or even tomorrow. Behaviour which can be seen as patterns or fractals can seem different but have some sort of underlying equation underneath it so don’t just look at the end result - see if you can check the engine yourself without interrupting the driver so much.

##Metrics / Measuring
All can be really hard to measure, but if you do your homework you can really see though usually by isolating things without piling things on top. I’d like everyone to be more educated overall - and this kind of document I feel can work for everyone see various variables and isolate them first… and without listing every combination I aim to help both sides ‘troll’ and ‘others’…
Just to be clear this paragraph doesn’t mean measuring in numbers or normal - but judging how it is for one’s self and others and finding a fairly pleasing method of ping pong / chat.

###Balance & Potential
On the one hand the intent by someone to cause trouble isn’t a great thing but on the other I find we have so much more to learn in terms of that actual word and usage of it + how we also on top of that assume a position and point at others actually mentioning the word ‘troll’ or putting in a sentence “you are trolling” - it doesn’t feel good and I’m not even a troll! These types of sentences make me feel like I’m back at school an observer someone being name-called and thinking… isn’t there a more accurate way of what you mean, just seems more dehumanising without the hint of progression. It could stem from people not liking what is said to them or didn’t like the way it was said etc… That shouldn’t be cause for name calling and would do well for us all to stick to the point.

###If I call you a troll are you more likely to be one?
I think we can understand conversation loops and positions enough to see that sometimes we accept what we see too easily as something else and if we are comfortable enough we use this name-calling much like bullies do in the playground but not intended to put both into this new dimension of that name. I think name-calling really puts people on the back foot… and is often negative or assumptive.

##Vast spectrums
Also with the vast spectrum and combinations of individuality so it’s often not so nice / a little assumptive to be called anything within that , and not so useful too even if you do label someone correctly. So using ‘names’ or boxes can almost feel like pushing someone into that position. Hence the name ‘troll’ perhaps not making things better and causing more upset and therefore more chance of some other emotional reaction.
Sticking to what the person has said and asking if it includes the other things may help make it clear with them what the focus is more than a name or stereo-type for it.

Double check

You can start writing about stuff only to sound like you’re in a monologue / conversation with yourself only to later realise what they were saying. You can do it the other way around and repeat back to them what you think and ask if that’s what they means, that way you don’t end up talking about things that are off the mark and constantly need adjustment by others. Asking if you got what they said make steps more solid and incremental.
Call it micro-managing or something but small parts of any given subject as important (if not more) than whole ones. Take care of the small and bigger pieces can be easy to join up. Don’t start too many big joins unless you know all the small one’s.

###Parts of the name or group… not the name itself
We might often not want to consume more time and energy reading what someone actually means and helping them find out what they mean. If you need to work together then you need to agree to do this at some point. If it’s general chat it’s good not to jump to name that group a whole lot of other things. Choose smaller umbrellas of words if you really have to.

###Not speaking on someone else’s behalf
A lot of people use words in sentences to call out “that’s communism” if perhaps something more copied or taught from mediums like TV… you’re either this or that, there’s hardly much time given to really get deeper… so be careful not to start speaking on someone else behalf and assume things or names.

##Speak for yourself
I find it practically more useful to speak from one’s self. People can help you with what you mean, rather than refer to what someone else said, saying “you know they said” but not knowing who or quoting things that everyone has said in different contexts… not so useful. If If you can strip things to their core, you’ll say things more precisely and as you have seen or experiences it without comparing others who are completely different individuals, or quoting things that fall into stereo-types or other habits (cultural, traditional, etiquette-based, competitive etc). Again not so useful.

Both have weakness / sensitivities (both sides / parties / people)
Imagine I have a problem but instead of dealing with that VERY EXACTLY I make chance for it to funnel in other areas knowingly. (this can be to a high level like ‘deliberate’ intent or simply an avoidance to investigate further or give time in my own head why, do the calculation and come back to the person ready for more neutral a reaction towards finding things out without personal attack / ad hominem etc.
Perhaps overall this shows the weakness on both sides and possibly less skill in managing it. Not all ‘trolls’ can or should be fixed perhaps and equally not all people could / should have the skills to get something more useful from the situation… I will edit this topic as the day passes… and perhaps make a big header saying “ok finish” or some signal after reading main topic points or discussion material. Thanks

#next part is less clear so don’t try yet for both our benefit! :slight_smile:

What if the troll is not a troll, you just mean they write a lot?
If people think (in their mind) about trolls as long writers of mostly drivel / nonsensical stuff then perhaps those people they will always deny being a troll and insist that they’re expressing genuine beliefs, simply because they are… separating the long writing (more fact) from drivel (more your opinion) helps it make it clear if you consider that we see lot’s of people people go on and on talking purely because each has their own opinion which almost never ends / cannot be solved / should not be ‘solved’. That seems to make sense in a lot of observed conversations.. Find where the difference is, see how much you give each other to play with nicely and then agree to what you can.

To differentiate your view from another needs more prior work which isn’t limited to

  • A better topic title! - Lots of topics can use words which are already some kind of opinion and if we know about this we can help avoid confusing all the lovely humans.
    • Words like good or better, don’t say what they mean very well… and would regulalry encourage more wide-ranging opinions - you can expect differing opinions as a result… So forum ‘master’, ‘admin’ or any other title maker has a big responsibility in letting expression run. It also FALLS on you at the top of some kind of pyramid to create a focused / more certain title so your members don’t squabble or fight because you put them in the ring (forum) of obscurity.

Wanted and Unwanted behaviour
It’s touch and go between what is unwanted or wanted. A good question often is ask if we should even differentiate? There might simply be another way. People will do what they do and perhaps we are all like teachers at the same time as learning to show the better games possible between us.
It’s really easy to easier to put one stock sign or rules but does it reflect well in lots of different fighting areas and style for that subject? Anyway guidelines are good and the expectation that people will be different and ask for help in nice ways…
Is guess just selfishly saying… “I’m sorry we don’t want you in this forum any more because we feel you’ve done your job well up till now and we’re overwhelmed and don’t really want all that and want to work on stuff in our way…” …this is perhaps quite honest but unrewarding to any person who might see it as a lacking of dealing with things or have better ways… UNLESS there is an alternative or a constructive recommendation like where else they can try (without deliberately misleading them like some kind of deliberate distraction often deployed for moving away unwanted children!).
Also if we had other areas to go to / play we would simply move on and say “oh I’m sorry, I’ll just pop to the other games room. Sorry to disturb you”


##some links for reading later…

http://piny.be/jrayhawk/notes/intellectual_maladaptation/

What is a troll? Some Zero State history
https://lists.hackerspaces.org/pipermail/discuss/2015-February/010277.html
https://lists.hackerspaces.org/pipermail/discuss/2015-February/010393.html


Addendum / notes for the future

Main points and work is done - I will keep revising things over the days and weeks, purely because work is never complete for big works, and sometimes and it’s a better system (at least for) to come back to it later, re-read from a fresh mind, and let people enjoy the main points and ‘ok’ version now. I hope you enjoy what you can from reading… it could be something for now and later…
##Any comments welcome by PM to keep this page less in mass and focussed on reading.
My inability to talk the same language as you or how you would like, may be assumed already and will be has been considered preferably away from public comment (more with self-development) so please let me know about any part precisely if it’s in this area of comment so I can look at what it is and I can change it / improve it… I will re-read things myself anyway later and edit it again so you can save your effort too and just take the best you can… My thanks for reading.

note 1

docuwiki has a TOC it seems - although it’s external to this and needs another account (not too much of a big deal maybe but I’ll have to look into it either way = more time)
Main thing is that I wanted about a TOC is that it is here. It would help me write / organise (here) and I’ll consider there too.

note 2

Trolls or trolling seems to be a vast topic of extended discussion. I probably wouldn’t want to look at it more than I have - although all is interesting - it can be too long for one subject and like I said for reference and searching within later. Long writing definitely seems to be connected to people calling it different things. I do like detail and collecting bits of info.

note reply 3

PHRASE: DO NOT FEED THE TROLL - I’ll add something about that phrase ‘do not feed the troll’ - COMPLETELY forgot.

I remember hearing this person say it in real life and I kinda understood what they meant (I saw it as ‘don’t give them more energy’ or ‘I’ve had enough of this’) but calling them a troll was worse at that time. So I’ll insert this paragraph somewhere when I feel like it and it’s meaning for now I see as / could be:

  • I’m thinking that more energy will not help or be rewarding
  • I feel I’ve tried enough and exhausted myself and all avenues I can to negotiate things happening.
  • Please consider we have tried before your arrival and come to a place without much help or optimism that further help will make a change / and perhaps make things worse
  • Please consider this is a sensitive moment and hard to understand in a short time
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dokuwiki has this feature. http://wiki.fractalfuture.net/doku.php

https://lists.hackerspaces.org/pipermail/discuss/2015-February/010277.html

https://lists.hackerspaces.org/pipermail/discuss/2015-February/010393.html

Your behaviour (writing a long post about trolls) is indistinguishable from troll behaviour.

A troll wants attention and to waste peoples time. (‘A troll moves conversations in directions ostensibly undesirable to other participants.’).

In a community that understands trolls, reading/discussing a LONG post about trolls is a waste of time. So a troll might troll them by making such a post. Clever. You’re being trolled by a post about teaching you how to avoid being trolled. Also good for the trolls ego because she is writing about the thing that she is and does and is doing.

The only thing you really need to know about trolls is: DO NOT FEED THE TROLL.

I won’t tell you how to identify a troll, but once you have identified a troll: DO NOT FEED IT.

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I don’t know if this is true / or it wasn’t in my focus (so apologise) when connecting main points together using this useful software / also I’m not sure if you can represent the community so quickly in a sentence / and even considering all this… it seems something helpful for me and those interested… so it’s all win win situation unless it really takes up some kind of space and resources and you feel you really must read it or waste your own time. Consider why you can’t ignore it and find the win for yourself!.. or read my disclaimers and hints that it’s not for discussion and it’s my own thing for self-study.

Speaking on my behalf
I like your writing, I think that’s good to say because I enjoy / respect the points even if my own limitations in many I’ve seen / skipped when reading some of them. Consider it may be the same for you and your own limitations and one of those things could be speaking on your own behalf and not mine.
Additionally speaking / representing others here seems likewise an erroneous / less valuing move which isn’t from source and kinda underestimates our / their own capabilities in being able to ignore or reading this or make comment themselves (if they even cared). Others can choose that right? So why are you feeling like having to defend them?

So have a think about that before continuing and speaking on other people’s behalf - or just answer lots of stuff really quickly… hehe. These ‘reaching’ statements don’t encourage quality per words in replying to me so consider leaving things to their own voice and intellect as a more effective way of writing. My thanks in advance and a light-hearted meow! :smile_cat:

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comrades