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How can we raise the funds so that we can stop talking and start doing?

There is already the Social Future wiki and you are free to use it as you please. The reason why I haven’t proposed doing so already is that there’s a technical issue with the wiki that I haven’t been able to resolve, yet. But as long as you don’t put anything too mission critical on it, it should be a good tool for documenting the DAVS project.

I’m sorry that I haven’t been more active in this conversation. I’m quite fascinated by the DAVS project, but my current energy level and health is lousy. This is something that troubles me deeply, and it’s a great problem that is very difficult to deal with. I have to focus on dealing with ME/CFS rather than doing anything else, unfortunately :frowning:


Sorry - might have missed it…What’s the definition of a dirty business?

You would need to ask @Maximo_Ramallo about that. He mentioned something like that at How can we raise the funds so that we can stop talking and start doing?

I don’t see a clear definition of a “dirty business”. Creating such a definition is something we probably need to do sooner or later. But at the moment I don’t see a pressing need for doing that. We might brainstorm such a definition in a separate thread, if there is any demand for that.

In my own opinion, slavery, usury (scams and such), and much of social engineering are dirty businesses.
Arms and drug dealing depends on who, what and why, because many libertarians can give you convincing opinions that these are not dirty business.

Hey, the idea I’m pushing here is to move forward with a project that I think can really take transhumanism to the next level. I see a critical synergy between three core pillars, each co-dependant. These are VR, AI, and neural interfacing. The end product is a VR environment that can be used for many purposes but most importantly for designing and test-driving your next body, and for sharing ideas in that regard. I think this idea is feasible because VR is just now taking off and that using that to leverage a platform for use in developing human-like AI and several variants therof, which can then be used to simulate and develop neural interfaces, which then completes the cycle by allowing your mind to literally inhabit a VR avatar, which then completes the circle.

The first step in making this happen is to seek funding. The project will require, conservatively, about a billion dollars, so the pitch must be a real knock-out from the start. So I propose a website to explain this idea to potential investors. But to get their attention, I want to do the website in 3D, make the pitch website itself be a 3D virtual reality… The technology to do this is available, but the tools are a bit rough, see . I’m in a pretty bad situation right now, but I still want to do this. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

I should also mention that the kiddies (12-18) have been watching this anime called “Sword Art Online” and are super hyped about a “full dive VR” system and created a forum, “nerv gear squad”,

So yeah, this can happen…


Hi, Alan. Thanks for posting your ideas in the Fractal Future Forum! :smiley:

I like your approach to combine VR, AI, and neural interfacing (let’s call it NI for now). You seem to have a circular/spiral scheme in mind with VR -> AI -> NI -> VR+ -> …

However, I see that each of those technologies has the potential to accelerate the development in every other field:

  • General efficiency increase by using VR as improved work- and design environment
  • General efficiency by using AI as agents or assistants
  • General efficiency increase by using NI to interact better with technology of any kind

So, I have more of a triangular shape in mind, where each vertex supports each other vertex. But you are probably right that starting with VR is probably the easiest and most promising route to go.

  1. What’s the exact goal of this project?
  • How will it be profitable?
  • What kind of technology will it use?
  • What’s the targeted user base?
  • What kind of team should work on the core project?
  • Are other teams already working on similar projects?
  • How can PR backlashes like those that happened to Second Life be avoided?
  • How will it improve the world?

I’m asking these questions from the point of view of a potential investor. If you want to convince them, you need to learn how they think. I don’t claim to know how they think, since I’m merely imagining how I would think if I was a rich investor. Nevertheless, doing some research on the psychology of investors might be a worthwhile project in itself.

Raising funds is a generally difficult problem, but it’s a special case of selling an idea or product. The discipline which is concerned about selling things is called “marketing” – and we are aware that we actually need

But before you can sell your idea to investors, you should be able to at least convince fellow transhumanists that your idea is cool and worthwhile. Your current description of the project sounds good, but it feels too general to be actually engaging. I know that you’ve written some very fascinating stories, and I think that’s generally the right way to go to get people enthusiastic about futuristic projects. Not saying that you need to post a story in the F3, but writing more details about your ideas would make it clearer what you actually want to achieve with it. Why should people care about the idea?

Anyway, I’ve also been thinking about NI recently. I’d really like to read your thoughts about


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By the way, this sounds like good topic for having a Hangout about :wink: (and one starts in half an hour).



The kinds of things I want from it for myself would probably be incomprehensible/distasteful to most people so I don’t tend to talk about them. That leads me to try to speak in generic terms to try to hook on to whatever it is that might motivate the reader. My muse does not take orders… I had been working on a writing project but it’s been stalled for two years. =\

How about u write something for a change?

Regardless, its good to have a two-way conversation about this. I really do think this could be a common ground for many types of transhumanists to collaborate on because these are the bedrock technologies behind just about any form of transhumanism I can think of.

I see. Unfortunately, abstract and generic terms don’t really engage people on an emotional level. You might consider a different strategy, if you don’t want to talk about your own personal preferences. Talk about what kind of specific wishes and fantasies people usually have. It’s often what they dream about. Our dreams are our own private VR. Dreams can be “hacked” with special techniques. Ask @sandu, if you want to know more about the.

VR offers the possibility to experience the most interesting things you can do in dreams together with actual other persons. I guess when you phrase it like this, you can let the fantasy of the reader do the rest :smiley:

I’m currently working on the Netec 2045 sci-fi world. It’s mostly about a new economic and social order, but I guess I also need to include some impressive VR technology. :smile: I certainly want to write something about people seamlessly incorporating avatars in virtual worlds and the real world. If this is going to be popular, the sequel 2050 would probably show even fancier stuff like metamorphic avatars.

True, I’m glad you are sharing your thoughts with me on this forum. :smile:

You mean the VR / AI / NI trinity? Well, it would be beneficial for any kind of ambitious transhumanist project. But the same thing could be said about a better economic system. :gift:

Count me in for getting projects started. We need a server to run websites off of. If we can get one ‘minimum viable product’ or prototype running, we can attract some venture capital investment.

At this time I am learning Googles’ TensorFlow AI software. I have an idea and business model. Essentially it is the same as . This is what I had in mind before I learned about Clarifai. Many of the TensorFlow tutorials are ready to be implemented as ‘AI as a service’. I was making some good progress until I moved behind a firewall. If I had access to a VPN or a server that would redirect my web traffic, I could work on it again.

I am not an expert in AI or programming, but I am learning as I go. I need to find out how to implement a scalable website with user accounts and billing.

If I had someone knowledgeable to work with, this could be up and running with customers in a month or two - investors or not.

From there I would use the money to build more businesses.

Clarifai looks Interesting. They seem to have specialized in image recognition. So, we should not do exactly the same. We might want to do some brainstorming about what AI and TensorFlow in particular could be used for.

Interesting. What’s your targeted customer base? Clarifai seems to have some pretty big customers. Could we profit by targeting small companies instead?

I could set up a simple virtual private server from Digital Ocean for you, if you don’t need something really fancy or powerful. Perhaps also talk with @Macius_Szczur about what you need exactly.

If you have enough money, you might want to hire a full stack web developer who uses React. Alternatively, you could try to build something on your own, which will probably take ages. Or I’ll try to do it for you as programming exercise, but I’m not sure how that will work out, either. There are probably some easy CMS solutions for what you want, but I’m not sure how much they would scale.

Now that we are talking about AI: I wonder how my reputation system Quantified Prestige could profit from AI assistance. What might work is using AI to create simulations of an economy running on QP.

I want to compete with them directly on image recognition. Tensorflow does it well and will get better over time. I think Clarifai might use in-house AI software, that means that as the juggernaut of Google and the AI community that has sprouted up around Tenorflow advances, my little endeavor will benefit from the updates.

We can compete for the same customers and add new sectors as our capabilities expand.

This would be great! I just need something to redirect the browsing I do for Google searches. Also, Apache to host a little site until I can afford a dedicated server.

@Macius_Szczur Are you interested in helping with this?

Some of the AI training can take time, but I was doing it on an old laptop. The seq2seq example I was working on takes 20 GB of disk space. If I am using the VPN, I can use free Google Cloud trials again while I get everything going.

So let’s pool our resources and make use of all the free goodness the web has to offer to bootstrap this. Once we have something to show we can pass it around the VC funding circuit and see if there is anyone interested in investing. I think the company could be solvent, pay its own hosting and employees without investment simply by customer sales.

There has to be a ‘ready to go’ free user accounts solution. I will look today.

Why do you think that it would be a good idea to go into direct competition with an established company, rather than trying to do something else? Do you think the proof of an existing market outweighs the problems you have from fighting against dominant competition?

Also, if Tensorflow was really suited for image recognition, why hasn’t Google already provided some kind of image recognition service using their own full fledged version of Tensorflow? Once Google starts provided that kind of service, what chances do you expect any competitor to have in this area?

Does that mean you want to have a competitive edge by being cheaper than the competition?

Ok, there are two options. Either you set up your own VPS on Digital Ocean – preferable using that previous link, since it contains my referral code, because that will give you $10 worth of hosting for free! Or you tell me exactly what you need, preferably via mail or PM and I set up a droplet for you. For the latter case, I would like to be compensated in Bitcoin for my expenses.

What’s your VPN? Digital Ocean supports a VPN for droplets in the same location. Not sure whether that would help you in any way, but it’s an interesting option in general. Also, what about using personal cloud software like ownCloud?

I think you should rather focus on first convincing potential collaborators that your ideas are viable. How much experience do you have with entrepreneurship and start-ups?

@Radivis I will let you know when I am finished.

For everyone else, let’s do this!

Hosting, sure. Apache server I can provide. Not sure about redirection, but you can always use one of the free VPN services, there are quite a few out there, supposed to be good enough.

The following article may be of interest for AI related ventures:

It’s a bit shocking to see that AI companies and funding is still extremely concentrated on the US. What’s the rest of the world doing wrong?

I’m happy to have found that there are others who are actively exploring this concept. This is my first encounter with people who seek to utilize the principles of fractals in this way. I have a 4 yr old non profit that is based upon these principles. I built my organization as the umbrella for raising funds and sharing resources with the organizations connected to the project. We’re working in that capacity, with other organizations, at this time. I’m looking for others who really understand the vision and are ready to move on it. I’ve had problems finding Board Members who truly support the vision and those with expertise in technology, law and finance for supporting this kind of network and it’s common vision. I’m driven to continue moving forward with this vision because it makes so much sense as a way to accomplish charitable/philanthropic goals, together. Is there anyone in this forum who is knowledgable in the fields of technology, law and finance as they apply to this innovative effort?

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Fascinating! How would you define the principles of fractals? And how do they define your non profit?

That’s great! Could you please elaborate on the vision and mission of your non profit?

Getting people that fit a large number of very specific criteria is of course a huge challenge. May I ask you to specify whether Board Members would require to be knowledgeable in all of the mentioned fields, or would you be glad about people who are experts in at least one of those areas?

We are a network of non-profits, businesses, ministries and individuals.

This is the mission of my non profit:

Providing non-profit, businesses, ministries and individuals a common link to one another and to the resources needed to carry out their mission; To link human services, The Arts, media, music other cultural groups and organizations, including advocacy, education, etc for the purpose of empowerment and sustainability of individuals and families. Members of this network receive benefits in the form of; funds to support their contribution of service as part of the collective program(s) provided by the network

We utilize The Arts to spark the desire to learn and explore, not just the performance aspect, but the business and technical side of the Entertainment Industry as well. We invite professionals in different areas of the entertainment industry (writing, technical, business, music, theater, film…) and colleges to teach and motivate youth and others, giving them the opportunity to explore these fields of study.

I would like each board member to be proficient in at least one of the areas I mentioned in my original post.

That sounds quite interesting. Where can interested people find out more about your network? Do you have a central online presence, or is it currently a network of sites of the constituent non-profits, businesses, ministries and individuals?