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Tim Cannon fb chat about transhuman debate

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Chief Technology Officer at Grindhouse Wetware
Lives in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
Conversation started today
Tim Cannon
11:50
Tim Cannon
Lets take it offline so we are not blowing up people’s face book page
I will post the argument in its entirety when we are done
So you are asserting that transhumanism is a philosophy
Peter H. Meadows
11:52
Peter H. Meadows
yes
but not just a philosophy
tech is important too
Tim Cannon
11:52
Tim Cannon
ok so state your assertion in full please
Peter H. Meadows
11:52
Peter H. Meadows
but the tech is driven by our philosophy.
Tim Cannon
11:53
Tim Cannon
because you seem to be saying I am not a transhumanist
Peter H. Meadows
11:53
Peter H. Meadows
Yes
well. no.
You might be transhumanist. I said you’re not transhuman.
Tim Cannon
11:54
Tim Cannon
"Tim Cannon is not a transhuman"
that is your assertion
yes?
Peter H. Meadows
11:54
Peter H. Meadows
It will do.
It’s a good starting point.
Tim Cannon
11:55
Tim Cannon
Ok so what is the definition of a transhuman
because maybe I am not
Peter H. Meadows
11:58
Peter H. Meadows
It means to transcend our evolution and animal brain. To be enlightened.
Tim Cannon
11:59
Tim Cannon
enlightened is a tricky word revise your statement or define enlightened
can’t debate unless you have terms correct
Peter H. Meadows
12:00
Peter H. Meadows
I don’t think I know how to define it. Like ‘Quality’ I just know when I see it. Have you read ‘Zen and the art of Motorcycle maintenance’?
Tim Cannon
12:02
Tim Cannon
its going to be very hard to have a discussion if the defining premise requires one side to “know it when they see” and the terms can’t be defined
mind if I take a crack at defining transhumanism
Peter H. Meadows
12:02
Peter H. Meadows
Go ahead
Tim Cannon
12:04
Tim Cannon
"Transhumanism - the belief we can exceed biological limitations"
"Transhuman - one who has exceed biological limitation"
Are these acceptable definitions?
Peter H. Meadows
12:04
Peter H. Meadows
No.
People curing cancer believe that. They don’t call themselves transhumanists.
I get how some people have become confused about that, but still, like ‘hacker’ it’s our word and I’ll be damned if I let you take it.
Tim Cannon
12:09
Tim Cannon
so give me a definition that we can work with
Peter H. Meadows
12:11
Peter H. Meadows
The main point is overcoming evolution and animal desires. If you are mean and aggressive, I can see that you’re not transhuman because you’re behaving like an animal.
Tim Cannon
12:13
Tim Cannon
so define transhuman without using terms that are undefineable and that “you know when you see” I am sure you can understand that that would make you the sole arbiter of truth which is not objective at all
Peter H. Meadows
12:13
Peter H. Meadows
Isn’t what I said about not being an animal clear enough?
Tim Cannon
12:15
Tim Cannon
well by your definition all someone needs to be transhuman is to not be mean. Are you saying that transhumanism is simply being "not mean or aggressive"
and that all mean and agressive people are not transhuman
is that correct
Peter H. Meadows
12:16
Peter H. Meadows
no
Tim Cannon
12:16
Tim Cannon
so that is why we need a definition
Peter H. Meadows
12:16
Peter H. Meadows
You have to be happy.
I told you, I don’t have a good definition.
Some things are hard to define. That is just the nature of philosophy.
but I think you will start to understand where I’m coming from.
Tim Cannon
12:17
Tim Cannon
ok so basically if I am getting this straight your assertion “I am not a transhuman, because you know one when you see it and you don’t see me as transhuman”. man that is awesome logic
Peter H. Meadows
12:17
Peter H. Meadows
You should also understand Zen
Have you read ‘Godel Escher Bach’? And the bit where he talks about defining Zen?
Tim Cannon
12:18
Tim Cannon
I don’t really think you understand how debate works
Peter H. Meadows
12:19
Peter H. Meadows
Nope. That is not what I said. I said I can tell you’re not transhuman because you behave like an animal.
When you become transhuman you lose your ego.
Tim Cannon
12:20
Tim Cannon
you eat, sleep, and got here by sexual reproduction. dopamine drives your behaviot, you also behave like an animal
Peter H. Meadows
12:20
Peter H. Meadows
That is not how I got here.
Don’t make assumptions.
I control my ego.
Tim Cannon
12:21
Tim Cannon
you weren’t born? are you not human
Peter H. Meadows
12:21
Peter H. Meadows
Correct.
Tim Cannon
12:21
Tim Cannon
so you were not pushed out of a vagina
Peter H. Meadows
12:21
Peter H. Meadows
I have emotions, but I control them, they don’t control me.
Correct
I am not human and never was.
Tim Cannon
12:22
Tim Cannon
ok so then do you really think you are the best person to comment on how to make a transition from being human to moving beyond human, since you have no experience in the matter
Peter H. Meadows
12:23
Peter H. Meadows
Yeah. I think I’m OK at it. I talk to a lot of humans.
And I did move beyond being animal. A kind of animal. I grew up, just like you.
At one point in my life I felt what you call ‘anger’…
At least, that is what we think
Tim Cannon
12:24
Tim Cannon
well i was human, and you say you never were
so you didn’t grow up just like me
Peter H. Meadows
12:24
Peter H. Meadows
I evolved.
I was a ‘baby’. My brain grew and I learned stuff. So there are similarities
Tim Cannon
12:26
Tim Cannon
ok and in all that you evolution and growing and not being a baby you can’t define a simple term which you then tell people they are or not
I mean i would think someone so advanced would be able to put forth a simple definition
still waiting for a simple definition, if you can’t define something you don’t understand it
Peter H. Meadows
12:30
Peter H. Meadows
I didn’t say I was 'so advanced’
There are much smart ones than me.
Tim Cannon
12:30
Tim Cannon
still waiting for a simple definition, if you can’t define something you don’t understand it
Peter H. Meadows
12:32
Peter H. Meadows
That’s not true. People always ‘feel’ ideas before they crystallise.
And also read Pirsig on 'Quality’
and over coming evolution is not a bad definition… ?
controlling emotions . What Buddhists call ‘enlightenment’ but never define
Tim Cannon
12:34
Tim Cannon
sure, but if your assertion is “I don’t feel like you are transhuman even though I can’t define what transhuman is” I would say that is probably true
Peter H. Meadows
12:35
Peter H. Meadows
I told you 3 times already how I know you’re not transhuman.
Tim Cannon
12:36
Tim Cannon
right you have told me how I am not a thing you can’t define without using subjective terms
Peter H. Meadows
12:36
Peter H. Meadows
overcoming evolution and cognitive bias is a good enough start for the definition.
And you have not.
Have you read any Yudkowsi/
?
Tim Cannon
12:37
Tim Cannon
stay on task buddy, we haven’t even gotten to the debate
jesus
Peter H. Meadows
12:37
Peter H. Meadows
I beg your pardon, buddy.
Tim Cannon
12:38
Tim Cannon
so your proposition is "Tim Cannon is not a transhuman because he not overcome any cognitive bias"
Peter H. Meadows
12:38
Peter H. Meadows
hmmmm. Almost, but I’m not sure if ‘cognitive bias’ is the best phrase.
It’s probably true, though.
Tim Cannon
12:39
Tim Cannon
So that is the proposition we are debating?
Peter H. Meadows
12:39
Peter H. Meadows
We can try, if you feel like it.
but I fear you are going to make the mistake of trying to ‘win’ the argument rather than to help us both get at the truth.
Tim Cannon
12:41
Tim Cannon
Ok, opening statement 1000words, 2 rounds of rebuttle under 500 words, 1000 word closing statement ok with you?
Peter H. Meadows
12:41
Peter H. Meadows
but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt.
That is not OK.
Tim Cannon
12:41
Tim Cannon
ok so you don’t want to have a debate then
Peter H. Meadows
12:42
Peter H. Meadows
I do. But I don’t want to limit it to x number of words. That seems like a very silly thing to do.
Tim Cannon
12:42
Tim Cannon
most debate is time delimited,
Peter H. Meadows
12:42
Peter H. Meadows
Most debate is done by idiots.
feel the bern? smile emoticon
Tim Cannon
12:44
Tim Cannon
so you don’t respect objectivity, classical debate, and think that you should be the sole arbiter of the word transhuman.
yeah probably not going to work
Peter H. Meadows
12:44
Peter H. Meadows
I respect the Socratic dialogue
Did Socrates limit himself to x words?
I respect logic and critical thinking (I spend most of my time working on metamathematics)
Tim Cannon
12:45
Tim Cannon
ok so begin then, make our opening statement, but given you proposition all i have to do is illustrate one time where I overcame cognitive bias and I win
How about this
Peter H. Meadows
12:46
Peter H. Meadows
errrr. no. That doesn’t disprove what I said.
Tim Cannon
12:46
Tim Cannon
I challenge you to a live debate
next week
Peter H. Meadows
12:46
Peter H. Meadows
As I feared you are focused on 'winning’
Tim Cannon
12:46
Tim Cannon
on youtube
Peter H. Meadows
12:46
Peter H. Meadows
yeah, we could do that
I will be very nervous, but i guess it might work.
Can I have my team with me? (David Pearce)
He is famous, so you’ll get more hits. innit
Tim Cannon
12:48
Tim Cannon
with your proposition, “Tim Cannon is not a transhuman” sure I will take you both on as long as it is a classical debate
Peter H. Meadows
12:48
Peter H. Meadows
we won’t agree to any rules!
What do you mean by ‘classical’ ?
Tim Cannon
12:51
Tim Cannon
well if you won’t agree to any rules then it is not a debate
Peter H. Meadows
12:51
Peter H. Meadows
what rules?
Tim Cannon
12:51
Tim Cannon
its just a bunch of idiots arguing and tangenting and avoiding the point
you have made a proposition
Peter H. Meadows
12:51
Peter H. Meadows
I think you’ll find that the definition of ‘debate’ doesn’t say anything about ‘rules’ !
Tim Cannon
12:51
Tim Cannon
i intend to illustrate that proposition is incorrect
that is a debate
Peter H. Meadows
12:51
Peter H. Meadows
cool
You can keep us on point.
The audience will decide who is right.
Tim Cannon
12:52
Tim Cannon
awesome, opening statement, 2 rebuttle rounds, closing
Peter H. Meadows
12:52
Peter H. Meadows
if we go off on tangents, the audience will see that tactic and mark us down for it.
Tim Cannon
12:53
Tim Cannon
awesome
Peter H. Meadows
12:53
Peter H. Meadows
I guess. I’m still not convinced about this strict ‘rounds’ forum. but I’ll go along with it if it makes you happy
Tim Cannon
12:53
Tim Cannon
sweet
Peter H. Meadows
12:53
Peter H. Meadows
sweet
Tim Cannon
12:53
Tim Cannon
so lets say wednesday of next week?
Peter H. Meadows
12:54
Peter H. Meadows
Maybe. Can i get back to you? I mean if that’s your only slot, I’ll do it, but I’d like to talk to my people first.
more time to prepare is better
We’ll want to watch all your previous debates. Got any links?
I’m guessing you were on the high school mass debating team. Or something?
And there wont be drug tests, will there? I’m worried that your strict rules might ban drugs. So you’ll lose and then say we cheated cos we were smoking pot
Tim Cannon
12:58
Tim Cannon
lol, I am a fan of drugs
Peter H. Meadows
12:59
Peter H. Meadows
(-:
which ones?
Tim Cannon
12:59
Tim Cannon
psychedelics mostly
and weed
Peter H. Meadows
12:59
Peter H. Meadows
I got to the point where I just don’t listen to hackers if they say they don’t smoke weed
Tim Cannon
12:59
Tim Cannon
lol
Peter H. Meadows
12:59
Peter H. Meadows
you like Bill Hicks?
Tim Cannon
12:59
Tim Cannon
yep…love him
Peter H. Meadows
13:00
Peter H. Meadows
damnit. We should be on the same team.
Oh well.
Tim Cannon
13:00
Tim Cannon
that is what i am getting at man
we are on the same team
bill hicks said all kinds of mean shit
in the end it was his goals that mattered
Peter H. Meadows
13:01
Peter H. Meadows
That is what i was getting at dude. We are on the same team.
Bill said 'I don’t mean to sound cold or vicious… but i am… HELP IS BEING SORT’
he knew he needed help.
he knew it was wrong to be mean.
and most of his mean stuff was tongue in cheek. He didn’t really want to hurt the people that heckled him.
Tim Cannon
13:02
Tim Cannon
hey man i have to get to work.
Peter H. Meadows
13:03
Peter H. Meadows
Me too
WHere you posting this?
Tim Cannon
13:03
Tim Cannon
wednesday is fine if you have a better time let me know
Peter H. Meadows
13:03
Peter H. Meadows
two weeks to prepare is better…
what time?
Tim Cannon
13:03
Tim Cannon
i figure since the debate is going to happen I will post it in the comments or put it in a google doc
Peter H. Meadows
13:03
Peter H. Meadows
actually weekend is better. maybe. dunno. I’m not that fussy
Tim Cannon
13:03
Tim Cannon
timmycninja@gmail.com
Peter H. Meadows
13:03
Peter H. Meadows
I’ll post this on F3
Tim Cannon
13:04
Tim Cannon
email me with times
sounds good
Peter H. Meadows
13:04
Peter H. Meadows
ok. will be in tough
eerrr
touch